(September 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: You claim there is consensus, but there is not. According to Abdur Raheem Green, a well known Fascist and Da'i, people who claim that you can use Meccan prayer times (if you do not live in Mecca) "should not be taken seriously" and "there is no basis for this claim":
At 44:40 in the video, during the question and answer portion.
So, in the words of one of the best known Da'i, Harris talking rubbish... See, nobody can agree on how to interpret the Quran and Hadith, hence we have different Jurisprudence and denominations. Allah did not tell humans whose Quran interpretation is the right one.
You are a mindful liar who is trying to powder naïve minds without getting as much as a scratch. You are copying and quoting lies of propaganda websites to spread a mischief in this thread. I know there are participants who outright detest my writings however, they are honest and do not structure their reasoning on deliberate lies. Your lies only points to a wicked personality of yours.
The webinar was about Fasting in the month of Ramadan.
Listen carefully the segment from 44:19 until 46:38. Here I quote some important points that Green has said in reply to a question.
The questioner imposed a question pertinent to reducing fasting time in a region where there is discernible sunrise and sunset but daylight time is substantially longer than the daylight time in Mecca. Questioner who is a new Muslim has taken this idea to be a nonsense yet wanted to have a confirmation from Green.
Question (from webinar):
“I heard that it may be possible to Fast in line of Mecca daylight hours which are shorter than the UK. Is this just nonsense?”
Check out my previous response where I had written:
“In the polar region, a Muslim can synchronize his prayer time with the prayer time in the nearest region where proper sunrise and sunset happens on daily basis or he can synchronize his prayer time with the prayer time in Mecca.
This rule is equally viable for people who wants to pray in space.”
Green’s reply: (from webinar)
“Nonsense is the word to describe it …. If anyone saying that, it should not be taken seriously.”
At the segment starting from 45:47, Green continued and said:
“Even those people who live in where it is 24-hour sunlight like for example in Tromsø up in just the northernmost mosque in the world or something like that in Norway, even they if it 24-hours daylight they fast according to the NEAREST CITY WHERE THERE IS A DISCERNIBLE SUNRISE AND SUNSET. They do not go to Mecca. That is what they follow.”
What Green is saying, even though people in the North have the right to fast according to Mecca time they prefer to go with the time of nearest region where there is a discernible sunrise and sunset. They do not favour to shorten their fasting time.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/ANG6q50Ovo...ure=oembed
(September 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: In regard to embryology, Keith Moore is a loon. Nothing more to add. He is an opportunist and he has been given lots of fake awards and titles by Dawah sites in order to make him appear like a more important scientist than he actually is.
Keith Moore to whom you are showing your contempt and reducing him to a LOON out of your arrogance and ignorance has not only received appreciations from Dawah sites but he also earned REAL AWARDS and HIGH REGARDS for his work from different nations around the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_L._Moore
Only a fraudulent, shameless, and duplicitous person (as you are) can make a fuss of a man whose diligence brought welfare in form of health benefits to whole of HUMANITY.
(September 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Anyhow you can find videos in this handy playlist I have linked, where most of the scientists who attended the conference at King Abdulaziz University inform watchers that they were deceived and quote mined. None of the scientists who attended the Shiekh's conference actually believe the Quran is miraculous. Keith Moor is absent because he is a noob.
Top scientists comment on the Quran YouTube Playlist
Featuring:
William Hay
Alfred Kroner
Tom Armstrong
Pete Palmer
Who explain how they were deceived by the Saudis.
Your list is incomplete. You have not included:
1. Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
2. Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.
3. Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.
4. Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA.
5. Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and was the Director of the National Astronomical Observatory, Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan.
6. Professor Tejatat Tejasen is the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand.
7. Professor Siaveda Professor of Marine Geology, Japan.
8. Dr. Maurice Bucaille, former chief of the Surgical Clinic, University of Paris.
That Comic (interviewer) has chosen the interviews only of those scientists who agreed to contradict their own statements. He has ignored and rejected all other honest scientists including Keith Moore.
In the videos that Cartoon is trying to create an impression as if some terrorists were standing on the heads of these scientists with naked swords when they were making those statements or someone has offered these scientists a hefty price as a SWEETENER to make false statements.
Since Hay, Kroner, Armstrong, and Palmer are NOT Muslims their testimony for the miracle of Quran is genuine and not insincere or affected. They ought to be ashamed of themselves for manipulating their own statements, which are now part of history!
Why did not they deny it then, why they deny it now? Perhaps this Cartoon has put them in a socially awkward situation where they were forced to lie to avoid offending their community members and maybe even endanger their own safety.
(September 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: I don't base my world view around these people so doesn't matter to me if I can't prove the existence of the people you listed.
It does not matter whether you base your worldview around these people or not, the main idea here is that you believe that Aristotle, Plato, And Socrates are not FICTITIOUS CHARACTERS.
(September 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: However, if we're going to play that game, there is more evidence for them than there is for a Mecca that is several thousand years old, as the Quran claims. We would expect a wealth of evidence supporting the Quran given that it's the truth. Yet Mecca was empty only a couple of hundred years before Muhammad came along.
The Quran is making a claim that Mecca is really old and we'd expect that if people have been going on pilgrimage there for thousands of years, like the Quran claims, we'd see evidence, such as human belongings or bodies (e.g. a burial site). I'm not asking for evidence for individual people, but of a trend of going for pilgrimage to Mecca between the time of Abraham and the time of Muhammad.
What else proof you like to have after having Quran. Had you or anyone yet shown how modern scientific facts turned out to be part of 7th century Quran?
People like you believe in the existence of Troy. Do you have any archaeological evidences for the City of Troy, which according to history was destroyed by Greeks in 1200 BC in a Trojan War?
(September 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: I can go further. The Quran also claims "waves the size of mountains" in relation to Noah's flood, suggesting it was global: 11:42
"So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! embark with us, and be not with the unbelievers!"
Yet civilizations in Arabia at the time of the supposed flood continue as normal, as if the flood had never happened. Some claim it was a local flood described in the Quran, but just how local is "local"? Local is a purely subjective term which means different things to different people. If it was local then people could simply avoid the flood.
But wasn't the intention of the flood Allah being upset at flawed creation? So Allah took away the free will of the flood victims and then after the flood let the world return to its flawed state. What a waste of human life! Speaking of Allah hating people, Allah must really hate all the starving Africans:
You have attempted to reduce God to a being Who is full of hatred. This is a perfect example of an extremely divergent character whose animosity is purely caused by the cultural and religious restrictions, which may hinder him to fulfil his certain immoral desires such as homosexuality and incest with an ease of mind. For this reason, he made himself free from all divine laws as an exhibit of his protest.
God has given some people more authority over others by making one rich and other poor to keep balance in the social structure.
By logic people who are disabled, poor, orphans, etc. should be taken as flawed creation of God but instead of wiping out these people, God has made obligatory for every healthy and rich person to look after these needy people in a best possible manner and commanded not to dishearten them in any sense.
God’s wrath comes over arrogant and evil doers who look at poor needy people no more than gutter worms or Work Donkeys. God hates transgressors, deceivers, and those who harm innocent people wittingly and who devouringly seek ways to have infinite fun, pleasure, comfort, and joy at any cost even at the cost of other human lives.
Such were the people of Noah.
Chapter 71 NUH “NOAH”
1. We sent Noah to his People (with the Command): "Do thou warn thy People before there comes to them a grievous Penalty."
2. He said: "O my People! I am to you a Warner, clear and open:
3. "That ye should worship Allah, fear Him and obey me:
4. "So He may forgive you your sins and give you respite for a stated Term: for when the Term given by Allah is accomplished, it cannot be put forward: if ye only knew."
5. He said: "O my Lord! I have called to my People night and day:
6. "But my call only increases (their) flight (from the Right).
7. "And every time I have called to them, that Thou mightest forgive them, they have (only) thrust their fingers into their ears, covered themselves up with their garments, grown obstinate, and given themselves up to arrogance.
8. "So I have called to them aloud;
9. "Further I have spoken to them in public and secretly in private,
10. "Saying, 'Ask forgiveness from your Lord; for He is Oft-Forgiving;
11. "'He will send rain to you in abundance;
12. "'Give you increase in wealth and sons; and bestow on you gardens and bestow on you rivers (of flowing water).
13. "'What is the matter with you, that ye place not your hope for kindness and long-suffering in Allah,-
14. "'Seeing that it is He that has created you in diverse stages?
15. "'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
16. "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?
17. "'And Allah has produced you from the earth growing (gradually),
18. "'And in the End He will return you into the (earth), and raise you forth (again at the Resurrection)?
19. "'And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),
20. "'That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads.'"
21. Noah said: "O my Lord! They have disobeyed me, but they follow (men) whose wealth and children give them no increase but only Loss.
22. "And they have devised a tremendous Plot.
23. "And they have said (to each other), 'Abandon not your gods: Abandon neither Wadd nor Suwa', neither Yaguth nor Ya'uq, nor Nasr';-
24. "They have already misled many; and grant Thou no increase to the wrong- doers but in straying (from their mark)."
25. Because of their sins they were drowned (in the flood), and were made to enter the Fire (of Punishment): and they found- in lieu of Allah. none to help them.
26. And Noah, said: "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth!
27. "For, if Thou dost leave (any of) them, they will but mislead Thy devotees, and they will breed none but wicked ungrateful ones.
28. "O my Lord! Forgive me, my parents, all who enter my house in Faith, and (all) believing men and believing women: and to the wrong-doers grant Thou no increase but in perdition!"
Scope of Noah’s Flood:
Whether Noah’s Flood was universal or local, there is no clear text in Quran and Hadith on that. Without such knowledge, any critique on Islamic point of view about the scope of Noah’s Flood is inappropriate.
(September 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: 39:52 "Know they not that Allah enlarges the provision or restricts it, for any He pleases? Verily, in this are Signs for those who believe!"
Why doesn't Allah give everyone the food they require instead of hurting them? But of course, it doesn't actually matter if people are starving because we will hopefully seem them in Jannah. Life is just a temporary state before Jannah, so it doesn't matter if there are wars or hunger.
Starving Africa:
African People are starving because Secular West is making fortune on the wealth of Africa. Politicians and economists in Secular West have transformed entire Africa into a Slave continent where people have no rights to use their own wealth for their own welfare. People, as you are, criticising God for the calamities of African people without realising that the economy of Secular West in fact is founded right on those calamities.
Natural resources in the world are more than sufficient to keep peace and harmony among people. There is no lack of food and there should not be any hungry homeless person in the world. However, arrogant mischief-makers use their resources and free will, which God has given to them, for stealing and looting everything by hook or by crook. These troublemakers have no worries about people who may suffer because their activities since target of these menaces is to increase their enjoyment, pleasure, joy, and comfort at any cost.
Hellfire is prepared for such arrogant evildoers.
“Are (these two) alike?- one to whom We have made a goodly promise, and who is going to reach its (fulfilment), and one to whom We have given the good things of this life, but who, on the Day of Judgment, is to be among those brought up (for punishment)?”
Al Qashash (28)
-Verse 61-
“(O ye unjust!) Eat ye and enjoy yourselves (but) a little while, for that ye are Sinners.”
Al Mursalaat (77)
-Verse 46-
(September 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: In regard to Spirit of Allah, how did you determine that the translators you listed had a better understanding than that Abdullah Yusuf Ali? We can both play this game. I could list Quran translators that suit my argument at the time, but I chose to remain consistent and always use Abdullah Yusuf Ali.
Regardless, there is no way am I using Sahih International. It's really dishonest translation, as I showed, here, in the topic titled "Newer Quran translations". It's a post science in the Quran narrative translation, hence the Saudis have translated it with certain biases. I'm not going to take a translation that forces the word "sperm" into the text of the Quran seriously.
And the others are just obscure translations. And Muhsin Khan translation was sponsored by the Saudi establishment, who obviously have and agenda and want to continue what Abdul Waahab started. Abdul Waahab was such a noob. He went around Arabia destroying historical sites.
Here is the translation and also the commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali
"O my sons! go ye and enquire about Joseph and his brother, and never give up hope of Allah’s Soothing Mercy: truly no one despairs of Allah’s Soothing Mercy, except those who have no faith."
Yusuf (12)
-Verse 87-
Commentary 1762
The word is rawh, not ruh, as some translators have mistakenly construed it. Rawh includes the idea of a Mercy that stills or calms our distracted state, and is particularly appropriate here in the mouth of Jacob.
Commentary 1763
Jacob ignores and forgives the sting and malice in the speech of his sons, and like a true Prophet of Allah, still wishes them well, gives them sound advice, and sends them on an errand which is to open their eyes to the wonderful ways of Providence as much as it will bring consolation to his own distressed soul. He asks them to go again in search of Joseph and Benjamin. Perhaps by now he had an idea that they might be together in Egypt. In any case their stock of grain is again low, and they must seek its replenishment in Egypt. ®.
The Meaning of the Glorious Quran
Text, Translation & Commentary by:
Abdullah Yusuf Ali
You can download this Quran from the following link.
http://www.islamicbulletin.org/services/...aspx#link1
(September 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: In regard to fresh water and salt water not mixing:
The Quran is not saying "in this specific example fresh water and salt water do not mix". The Quran claims fresh and salt water NEVER mix because it says Allah "created a barrier between fresh and salt water" not "in this particular place in the Arctic you will find a place where fresh and salt water do not mix because Allah put a barrier there".
“It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water 3111) One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed. (3112)”
Commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali:
3111 Maraja: literally, let free or loose cattle for grazing. Bahrayn: two seas, or two bodies of flowing water: for bakris applied both to the salt sea and to rivers. In the world taken as a whole, there are two bodies of water, viz., (1) the great salt Ocean, and (2) the bodies of sweet water fed by rain, whether they are rivers, lakes, or underground springs: their source in rain makes them one, and their drainage, whether above ground or underground, eventually to the Ocean, also makes them one. They are free to mingle, and in a sense they do mingle, for there is a regular watercycle: see n. 3106 above: and the rivers flow constantly to the sea, and tidal rivers get sea water for several miles up their estuaries at high tide. Yet in spite of all this, the laws of gravitation are like a barrier or partition set by Allah, by which the two bodies of water as a whole are always kept apart and distinct. In the case of rivers carrying large quantities of water to the sea, like the Mississippi or the Yangtse-Kiang, the river water with its silt remains distinct from sea water for a long distance out to sea. But the wonderful Sign is that the two bodies of water, though they pass through each other, remain distinct bodies, with their distinct functions (Cf. 27:61 and 35:12).
3112 In Allah's overall scheme of things, bodies of salt and sweet water, which are adjoining and yet separate, have significant functions. Weaving a harmonious fabric out of these different fibres shows both Allah's power and wisdom. Incidentally, this verse points to a fact which has only recently been discovered by science. This fact relates to the oceans of the world: they meet and yet each remains separate for Allah has placed "a barrier, a partition" between them. (Eds.) ( Cf. 23:100).
(September 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Whenever it rains on an ocean fresh and salt water mix.
Perhaps, all scientists are crazy people because knowingly that rainwater mix in seawater they not only invented the word HALOCLINE but also firmly sticking with the use of it in their everyday workflow.
Special Note:
In this forum, my objective is to have honest and edifying discussions with you guys. If you will continue lying, double-dealing, distorting verses by quoting them out of context, twisting the realities, and try to deceive people intentionally then I would be left with no other choice than to disregard any of your justifications and utterly ignore all your arguments.
(September 2, 2015 at 7:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Except the things you quoted are references to observation, and to poor interpretations of them. . . there's no evidence that they are references to real science, or that God was requried in order for those interpretations to be made.
What is science at its root? Is not it simple observations at the first stage? Scientist reach to a complex idea only based upon primitive observations. Scientific achievements are not possible without having simple and foundational observations.
However, the phenomenon, which are mentioned in Quran, are not discernible through simple unaided observations. For example, celestial bodies moving on fixed round paths, heavens and earth were one unit of creation before God clove them asunder, Expanding universe, Solar apex, Deep ocean currents, Human embryo and its stages of development, etc.
(September 2, 2015 at 7:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: To say that clay turns into semen isn't science. At best, it shows an awareness that the body is sustained with materials from the Earth-- another easily-observable phenomenon.
Yes, clay goes through different chemical processes and turn into semen and other organic forms.
“Most of the elements needed for life are relatively common in the Earth's crust.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compositio...human_body
(September 2, 2015 at 7:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: No, but they can all be INTERPRETED and spun to represent scientific fact if one is as willing to do so as you are.
I am quoting verses of Quran whose literal meanings are ample for giving satisfactory understanding without any additional interpretations.
(September 2, 2015 at 7:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: "I don't know therefore Allah" is not a logical improvement.
The problem with you (atheist) is that you are looking at God’s reflections in everything around you and within your own being yet you categorically prefer the ABSURD ideas such as “NOTHINGNESS” and “CHANCE” to the existence of God. This preference is the result of your desires to have free sex (without any difference between relatives and sexes), free use of alcohol, gambling, and to have maximum fun and pleasure by any moral or immoral means.
You (atheist) are acting as a person who looks at a Watch and say, “there is no human designer and this watch popped out of Nothingness as a matter of Accident and Chance.”
(September 2, 2015 at 7:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Dude, seriously. Buy a couple bus tickets, go to the sea at the mouth of a river, and tell me what you see.
Unfortunately, in 7th century Arabian Desert, there were no buses. People had camels, horses, donkeys or they travelled on their own two feet. All those means of transport were not good enough for taking someone to some seashore quickly through a huge and almost hostile desert where travelling alone was virtually equivalent to a suicide.
(September 2, 2015 at 7:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Do you know that thousands of years before Muhammed was born, the Romans and Greeks had established links with Europe, Africa and Asia, and collected libraries full of information about the world? Do you know that people had the ability to travel? Do you know that Muhammed had language, and therefore had plenty of access to all kinds of knowledge outside the Arabian Desert?
Before eighth century, Arabs were illiterate and had no idea about the knowledge, which Greeks, Romans, and Persians had that time. Only in ninth century Arabs had started translating literature from other languages including Greek, Roman, and Persian into Arabic Language.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmissi...k_Classics
http://www.alhewar.org/ArabCivilization.htm
Before and during lifetime of Prophet Mohammad, there are no signs in the history of Arabia that some Greek, Roman, or Persian scholar came to illiterate Arabs and gave them proper education or those Arabs had gone out somewhere for the purpose of having education.
(September 2, 2015 at 7:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: It's their way of saying that everything was made by God. This is not a surprising position for monotheists to take. It's also hopelessly imprecise and lacking any detail that could confirm that it represents a knowledge of the Big Bang or anything else that is scientific.
Indeed, God is the creator of everything and this belief is truly a position of any monotheist. Quran has given scientific facts only as references to expose its divine nature because the main objective of Quran is to deliver LAW and WARNING to the people. You know that references normally do not contain details. However, today, even a marginally educated person can easily give a short scientific term as interpretation to verse 21:30, which is about the creation of universe out of single object of creation. That term is BIG BANG. People had no idea about Big Bang in the period when Quran revealed.
(September 2, 2015 at 7:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Hmmm. . . maybe because millions of texts were burned in Alexandria and other places? Maybe because it's so obvious to anyone familiar with oceans that nobody bothered to make a point of it?
Maybe, maybe, maybe in Rome or Greece someone knew about the absolute darkness in the depth of an ocean, which is extremely unlikely as well as it is also highly improbable that among illiterate Bedouins of 7th century Arabian Desert, there lived any Deep-Water Diver.
(September 2, 2015 at 7:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: A lack of evidence that people knew about the obvious and easily-observable isn't really good support for the miraculous nature of the Quran. It is much better support for the nature of Time.
Ancient people had no means to observe Fixed Round Paths on which celestial bodies are moving and they were not able to observe Solar Apex, Big Bang, Expanding Universe, stages of embryonic growth etc. Without having modern scientific tools, even you are not able to observe these known phenomenon. These concepts were not even in dreams of those poor ancient guys.
(September 2, 2015 at 7:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: "God made everything, cuz he's the shizzit." Not science. Not a miracle.
Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! That is no more news to me. I know when atheist caught in trouble he start shitting everywhere.
(September 2, 2015 at 7:58 pm)IATIA Wrote: Your god had no cause, therefore, there your god does not exist.
Study the work of Aristotle and Plato and check out whether God has a cause or not. That study would give you decent understand about why UNCAUSED God is necessary for the existence of Caused Universe.
If there is no God who is Uncaused then there should be “Nothingness” as things cannot cause their own beings. If “Nothingness” exist out of which everything is popping out spontaneously and then vanishing back into it, then everything is part of “Nothingness.” However, everything is “Something” therefore “Something” cannot be “Nothing” hence, “Nothingness” is a THOROUGH ABSURD. If “Nothingness” does not exist then there should exist an UNCAUSED GOD.
(September 3, 2015 at 1:17 am)paulpablo Wrote: Are you ignoring what I'm telling you and then just typing random words? I said you're wrong, the quran does not mention anything is necessary in order to feel pain. And you're replying with this, which has nothing to do with what I just said.
If you say 2+2 = 5 and I correct you by saying it's 4, you can't just avoid the issue of you being wrong by saying "Well 4 is a pretty good number aswell."
Avoiding the question again, for the 3rd time, do you think people in ancient times experienced the symptoms of 3rd degree burns? And why is it taking you so long to answer a simple question?
Is there anyone in the world who at the time of experiencing burn may think about what degree of burn he/she is getting? Write sensible things.
(September 3, 2015 at 1:24 am)paulpablo Wrote: Quote: Without skin, it cannot generate sensory data on its own. Therefore, skin is responsible for the burning sensation not the brain.
Wrong because of
Quote:[i]paulpablo Wrote: As we already discussed this is just one of the many methods people could feel punishment, other organs also have pain receptors.
Harris Wrote - I totally agree!
What then! Does it changed anything? Brain still needs sensory data to process sense of pain. Without skin and other sensory organs, brain still cannot generate senses on its own.
(September 3, 2015 at 1:42 am)paulpablo Wrote: I'm not associating any presumption with the verse, or changing the wording of the verse or doing anything to the verse, I'm not saying there's a loophole in the verse.
You're not replying to what I type with any meaningful words, it's just a mish mash of jibberish.
I'm saying the verse we're talking about would still make sense looking at it from the perspective of the heart being the major organ responsible for perceiving pain.
You have a right to look at the verse with whatever perspective however, literal meaning directs thoughts neither to HEART nor to MIND but only to SKIN.
(September 3, 2015 at 2:03 am)paulpablo Wrote: This is how unreasonable confirmation bias makes you.
You act as if you just happened to be studying in extreme detail ancient sources on skin burns and deep ocean currents and you suddenly realized the Quran is miraculous.
The true story is that you do believe in it already and you want to try and use science to prove what you already believe.
When you're saying ancient people didn't talk about this subject, it doesn't make it a fact that they didn't talk about the subject. The record keeping and literacy rate at the time of the Quran I imagine was relatively limited.
On top of this I don't think anyone involved in this conversation can claim to be experts in the historical accounts of how ancient people understood burning or deep ocean currents.
And on top of that the point you continually try and avoid when it's pointed out to you is that we're talking about things that are EASILY experienced, the symptoms of burning, darkness in the ocean, the so called barrier in the seas miracle.
It's all just stuff people can see or feel, and you have to understand that IF people could have discovered these things in a simple way rather than a miraculous way then the simple way will always be more believable.
If I get told an elephant was teleported by the ghosts of aliens using the weapons god gave them from one cage to another, it's more likely I'll simply believe a person working in the zoo did it instead.
EVEN if the zoo keeper failed to keep written records of the elephant being moved, or I just can't find the records.
And ON TOP OF EVERYTHING there were Professional Observers who have not missed even the count of wing flaps of a flying mosquito and recorded every minute detail of every observable thing, yet they have missed recording Ginormous Natural Events which are mentioned in Quran.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Romans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_an...ilosophers
