Miracle

[Harris]

Atheists take miracles as merely a fictional creation unconsciously designed to satisfy the needs of the religious mind for some external salvation. They see miracles as violations of natural laws, an event that nature could not have produced on its own - an event that will always be incompatible with the relevant natural laws.

In his book, "KRAFT UND STOFF," Ludwig Büchner argues that:

“Science, however, has long banished every thought of supernatural interference in demonstrating the mechanical and accidental processes in these phenomena.”

Page 87
Force and Matter
By Ludwig Büchner
Edited by J. Frederick Collingwood

According to Ludwig Büchner, force is inseparably bound to a material substrate and thus cannot be regarded as a kind of supernatural and transcendent entity. He argues that all changes and events follow mechanical laws. These laws are not imposed on nature from outside, but are built into matter itself. Matter is eternal and has no bounds, neither on a microscopic nor on a macroscopic scale. It is ruled by rigid and universal laws, which do not allow for miracles. His emphases is on the concept that soul or mind, as well as organic life, are the product of specially combined materials that are endowed with special mechanical forces. There is neither an immaterial spiritual substance, nor a vital force, nor an externally set purpose of nature. He, like many others, concluded that a miracle could not be believed because the testimonial evidence in its favour necessarily contradicted uniform human experience of the laws of nature.

In general, the orderly, elegant and harmonious processes of nature indeed curtail any apparent probability of miracle.

Astronomers revealed the vastness of the universe, physicists discovered that the same laws applied beyond the moon as applied below it and that the universe is a vast machine and biologists found a minuscule universe of a vastness comparable to the macrocosm.

The predictability of all events in nature is possible only because of cyclical patterns of growth, maturity and decay.

We as rational beings are in a position to state with absolute certainty what nature could or could not produce on its own. All acknowledge that the scientific enterprise is continually discovering new and often startling and unexpected information about the causal relationships that obtain in our universe.

I will now quote few well-established facts of science, which are so evident that if a person denies then it will be impossible to find a more obviously true principle on which to build a precise logical proof.

1. Big Bang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

2. Metric expansion of space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

3. Orbits
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit

4. The Solar apex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_apex

5. Iron carried by meteorites to earth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron

6. The deep ocean currents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contourite

7. Halocline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halocline
55:19-20

8. Human embryo and its stages of development
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo#Human

9. Skin a Pain Receptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatosensory_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutaneous_receptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutaneous_receptor#Types

I have deliberately selected these nine purely scientific concepts to demonstrate that in today’s hyperactive scientific world miracle is not only possible but also actual and existent.

For establishing my argument, I will first quote some verses from Quran, which correspond to the nine scientific facts that I have cited above.

1. Big Bang

“Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? … ”
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 30-

2. Metric expansion of space

“With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

“With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

Adz-Dzaariya (51)
-Verse 47-

3. Orbits

“And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

“It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.”
Translation by Yusuf Ali
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 33-

4. The Solar apex

“And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.”
Yaa Siin (36)
-Verse 38-

5. Iron carried by meteorites to earth

“…WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind…” (Quran 57:25)

6. The deep ocean currents

“Or (the state of a disbeliever) is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with a great wave topped by a great wave, topped by dark clouds, darkness, one above another, if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan:

“Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

An Nuur (24)
-Verse 40-

7. Halocline

“It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.”
Al Furqaan (25)
-Verse 53-

8. Human embryo and its stages of development

“O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you;”
Al Hajj (22)
-Verse 5-

“Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay);
Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!”

Al Mu'minuun (23)
-Verses 12, 13, 14-

9. Skin a Pain Receptor

“Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 56-


Now think of a Bedouin who lived in 7th century AD had developed all these true scientific facts. All these facts were inconceivable for anyone who was living in the 7th century Arabia. In that era no one could have known such details due to lack of knowhow and proper tools, especially the facts like how universe was born and that it is expanding or the staging and classification of human embryo. Scientists have just recently found out these facts by means of complicated and advanced scientific methods.

There are too many scientific accuracies in Quran, which cannot be taken as a mere chance. Quran is a living miracle as it revealed true scientific fact in a non-scientific era. It not only limited to scientific facts but also covers all other disciplines of human life. However, basic purpose of Quran is to give warning and good tidings and not, the science tutorials.

The most compelling reason for the uniformity of nature and successful progress in science is that nature was the result of design by an intelligent being. God is not only the creator of the universe in the sense of being the first cause, but he is also the agent who is the cause of its continuous existence. The existence of the world at every moment depends upon God’s will. The One who designed the architecture and all relevant laws has also the power to suspend those laws or intervene on purpose.


“We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things?”
Fush Shilat (41)
-Verse 53-

[The Valkyrie]

Mythology desperately attempting to equate itself to science.

[Foxaèr]

In layman's terms: anything considered a miracle is done so by ignorant twats with their escapism from reality through gaps of knowledge which lead to pretty fantasies that are appealing to their simple minds; a miracle is nothing more than a misguided concept of that which has not yet been naturally explained.

[Jenny A]

Atheists take miracles as merely a fictional creation unconsciously designed to satisfy the needs of the religious mind for some external salvation. They see miracles as violations of natural laws, an event that nature could not have produced on its own - an event that will always be incompatible with the relevant natural laws.

Not just atheists, but most other people too:

A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle

an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle

an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miracle

According to Ludwig Büchner, force is inseparably bound to a material substrate and thus cannot be regarded as a kind of supernatural and transcendent entity. He argues that all changes and events follow mechanical laws. These laws are not imposed on nature from outside, but are built into matter itself. Matter is eternal and has no bounds, neither on a microscopic nor on a macroscopic scale. It is ruled by rigid and universal laws, which do not allow for miracles. His emphases is on the concept that soul or mind, as well as organic life, are the product of specially combined materials that are endowed with special mechanical forces. There is neither an immaterial spiritual substance, nor a vital force, nor an externally set purpose of nature. He, like many others, concluded that a miracle could not be believed because the testimonial evidence in its favour necessarily contradicted uniform human experience of the laws of nature.

Damned straight.  There's no evidence of either a immaterial spiritual substance (whatever that might be) or a vital force.  

We as rational beings are in a position to state with absolute certainty what nature could or could not produce on its own.

Hardly.

All acknowledge that the scientific enterprise is continually discovering new and often startling and unexpected information about the causal relationships that obtain in our universe.

Sorry, but there's something grammatically wrong with that sentence.   However scientists do discover new information about the laws of our universe. Continually suggests it's happening every hour or day or say and that's not really the case.  Most scientific discovery is rather smaller than that.

I will now quote few well-established facts of science, which are so evident that if a person denies then it will be impossible to find a more obviously true principle on which to build a precise logical proof.

Well you'll provide some links anyway.  It's not quoting exactly.

I have deliberately selected these nine purely scientific concepts to demonstrate that in today’s hyperactive scientific world miracle is not only possible but also actual and existent.

Really?

For establishing my argument, I will first quote some verses from Quran, which correspond to the nine scientific facts that I have cited above.

1. Big Bang

“Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? … ”
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 30-

No, I don't think that that is a very accurate description of the big bang. The earth was not yet formed and wouldn't be for a long long time.  

2. Metric expansion of space

“With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

“With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

Adz-Dzaariya (51)
-Verse 47-

A description from the Koran meaning essentially nothing.

3. Orbits

“And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

“It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.”
Translation by Yusuf Ali
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 33-

Very inexact.  A planet in orbit is traveling as forward as fast as it is falling into a gravitational field.  Swimming it is not.

4. The Solar apex

“And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.”
Yaa Siin (36)
-Verse 38-

I don't even know what you think this means.

5. Iron carried by meteorites to earth

“…WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind…” (Quran 57:25)

And Allah claims iron.  So?

6. The deep ocean currents

“Or (the state of a disbeliever) is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with a great wave topped by a great wave, topped by dark clouds, darkness, one above another, if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan:

“Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

An Nuur (24)
-Verse 40-

And Islam notices there are oceans.  Really.  Like no one else noticed?

7. Halocline

“It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.”
Al Furqaan (25)
-Verse 53-

Nonsensical.  Could be about anything.

8. Human embryo and its stages of development

“O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you;”
Al Hajj (22)
-Verse 5-

“Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay);
Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!”

Al Mu'minuun (23)
-Verses 12, 13, 14-

But we are not made of clay.

9. Skin a Pain Receptor

“Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 56-

These two statements have literally nothing to do with each other.

Now think of a Bedouin who lived in 7th century AD had developed all these true scientific facts. All these facts were inconceivable for anyone who was living in the 7th century Arabia. In that era no one could have known such details due to lack of knowhow and proper tools, especially the facts like how universe was born and that it is expanding or the staging and classification of human embryo. Scientists have just recently found out these facts by means of complicated and advanced scientific methods.

You just showed that the Koran was written by someone living in the world with five senses.  But I didn't see any facts proven just by science and I did see some enormous misconceptions about orbit and the big bang.

There are too many scientific accuracies in Quran, which cannot be taken as a mere chance. Quran is a living miracle as it revealed true scientific fact in a non-scientific era. It not only limited to scientific facts but also covers all other disciplines of human life. However, basic purpose of Quran is to give warning and good tidings and not, the science tutorials.

Haven't seen any yet.  Try again.

The most compelling reason for the uniformity of nature and successful progress in science is that nature was the result of design by an intelligent being. God is not only the creator of the universe in the sense of being the first cause, but he is also the agent who is the cause of its continuous existence. The existence of the world at every moment depends upon God’s will. The One who designed the architecture and all relevant laws has also the power to suspend those laws or intervene on purpose.

Really?  Why?

“We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things?”
Fush Shilat (41)
-Verse 53-

A failed enterprise so far, but thanks for playing.

[Minimalist]

Ludwig Buchner....sounds like a crackpot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_B%C3%BCchner

[/url]

The extreme materialism of this work caused so much opposition that he was compelled to give up his post at Tübingen, and he retired to Darmstadt, where he practiced as a physician and contributed regularly to pathological and physiological magazines.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_B%C3%BCchner]

[Longhorn]

Oh sure, everything describes everything if you interpret it the right way. I still think green ham and eggs is a metaphor for the infinite regress.

[Aoi Magi]

"And it is WE who post a response in this thread." -myself
Look another miracle, myself wrote something that is quite possible for any human to write.


You know, observation is not the same as "prediction". And writing vague observations without any attempt of reaching a plausible explanation is not a miracle.

[ignoramus]

Harris Wrote: [url=http://atheistforums.org/post-963506.html#pid963506][/url]5. Iron carried by meteorites to earth

“…WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind…” (Quran 57:25)

And Allah claims iron.  So?

There's a shit load of iron in the earth. Why the need for meteorites? Special effects?

[Alex K]

These scientific insights don't provide "absolute certainty". But anyway, I don't understand what you are trying to tell us with this text. First, you cite the somewhat antiquated and scientifically naive writings of *some guy*, and then you cite all kinds of passages from the holy book that vaguely resemble things from science. In the middle you wave your arms around and say something about precise logical proof and obviously true principles and absolute certainty which makes no sense and only seems to serve the purpose to impress the reader with big words. I have no idea how these things are connected and what the point of this is.

[robvalue]

I take apart supernatural causation here on my website.

If there is such a thing as the supernatural, you may wonder if a supernatural agent can cause an effect in the natural world. Indeed, this is usually the premise of an interacting god. With methodological naturalism, there is no need to deny that this is possible. It may be possible, it may not be. However, there is a big problem. Since we cannot test or investigate any supernatural agents, all we have is the event they supposedly caused. And from what we see, the effect looks exactly the same whether a god was involved, a magic crab was involved, a ghost was involved, supernatural particles were involved or indeed nothing supernatural was involved. We only see and can test the natural part.

So say we have an event which appears to be unexplained by our understanding of the natural universe. The most sensible and honest thing to conclude is that we have an unusual, unexplained phenomenon. There is no way of telling whether there is a natural explanation that we do not yet know about, or if was caused by something supernatural. Again, what we actually see would look the same.

Even if we somehow concluded that there was a supernatural explanation, that is as far as it could go. There is no way of knowing which supernatural explanation is correct since we have no way of testing any of them. If someone claims to have a supernatural explanation, unless they can demonstrate how they know this, they are simply speculating. This is often justified by the question, "What else could it be?" This is the classic argument from ignorance fallacy and is not valid.

Speculating, and being satisfied with, a supernatural explanation is not only invalid, it is harmful. It does not increase our understanding at all, and it reduces the incentive of the satisfied person to go out and find other possible natural explanations. It is a trap very easily fallen into, when something strange happens, to leap to your favourite supernatural explanation. But all you are doing is stifling your critical thinking. I'm not saying you are wrong, I am saying you have no reason to think you are right, and could just as well invent a different supernatural explanation and it would be just as unfounded. If you think you have some way of demonstrating something about this supernatural cause, then you should be able to show this to others if you expect them to take it seriously, and by definition it is then natural and not supernatural!

Methodological naturalism:

This system deals only with the natural world, but does not deny the possibility of the supernatural world. The system recognizes however that since the supernatural, if it exists, is beyond our capability to detect, we can learn nothing about it. To me, this is the most logical position. Some people go further to state that there in fact isn't anything supernatural, philosophical naturalism. To me this seems to be making an extra claim which is not needed, to achieve the same results.