The Ultimate Value and the signs of it in ourselves.

[Mystic]

This was discussed earlier. I look at the moon, and I have subjective impression of it's size. However it's size is objectively there. There is nothing I can do about it.  I would not however have subjective impression of it's size without belief that there is an objective measurement to it.

When it comes to value of the self, the questions are: 

what is it? (1)
how do we see it? (2)
how do we know there is an objective value to it (if any)? (3)
Do we have objective measurement to ourselves? (4)
If so, how do we measure it?(5)
If not, how does this measurement exist and get maintained ?(6)
What role do good actions and bad actions have to do with our quality/value/rank? (7)
What system is in place to make our value objectively increased or decreased depending on our actions, how is this even possible that we inherit actions and increase our value? (8)

First of all, if we say our value is purely subjectively us giving ourselves value, then if someone values us less, and we value ourselves more, what is our true value? If we decide we are the most important person in the world, do we automatically become the most important person in the world? 

Do we set our value so if I want to make myself so great in my eyes, then automatically I can do this?

Obviously, we have don't simply assign value to ourselves, but when we judge, we do so with some sort of guesstimate at our true value. We all believe there is a measurement to who we are.

...and that they may know their Lord encompasses everything in number. (Quran)

Our value whatever it is, is not maintained by our perceptions. But we know it requires perception. As it requires perception, there has to be an objective perception who maintains that value.

How do we see it? We can see that we aren't made of some sort of unique value that is totally different then a value in another being, like one human is of totally different type x value and another human being is of y value, and x and y have nothing really in common. There is something binding us. There is something in all this. That something, in the words of Imam Ali, is expressed:

"He is in all things without being merged in them neither separate from them"

The different hues of value, the different forms, the different relationships established through it, are all manifestations of a greater value, a link to something greater, an absolute source and basis, an eternal reality.

As objective value cannot be arbitrary, it follows it's eternal and not something God can create out of nothing. Rather he creates through the truth of vision of himself for witnesses all things in himself.

Naturally we can all see this. That for example, there is something extra special about love. When we value a person to the degree we love them, we are bonding with "value" and valuing in a special way, that transcends and points to something special.

These signs of value, from honor, to courage, to compassion, to affection, are all signs of something greater. Something that these things are emerging from, but are depending to manifest.

That in thing lives inside of us "he is all things..."but he isn't merged into us neither is he separate from us.

The signs point in a way, in which they link to perfection, to one essence, that unites them all in a single absolute reality. They point to transcendence that doesn't lack a single possible existence or praise or beauty or glory or greatness or anything to be valued. The Ultimate Value by which all value emerges from.

This is one of the reflections of Quran "Or are they created from nothing...", contrary to what people might think, this verse is clearly not saying that anyone believes nothing existed and then creation emerged from that. Some humans believe that universe was eternal, however this verse is addressing the polytheists, do they think their essence is created from nothing, their souls are just created by God from nothing. Rather, he created it from water of his own light, his own value, and created through his name/face/light.

Now this explanation of the name of God/face of God the true reality of the human being, how can we know it to be true? This takes sincere reflection upon which we realize that value is not something we simply make up or biological brain assigns and maintains.

Aside from this is how our positive or negative actions play a role in our value. As said before, we don't simply decide we are the best people on earth, and hence become the best person on earth. 

There is a value to who we are. When do actions, we inherit it. Our value is actually increased or decreased. We don't decide the degree of that measurement. Sure we may think of ourselves at that moment and have our over all judgement of ourselves, but we all realize if Hitler thinks he is righteous it doesn't make him what he values of himself automatically the true value of himself. His actions degrade him, they put on the negative scale, in - side of zero, not on the positive. 

There is something making us inherit our actions, a judge that perceives who we are, because this qualitive type measurement can only be maintained by quality type perception.

It's not like a rock, it has weight, but it doesn't matter if we measure it or not,  this is qualitive, in which it depends on perception of who we are and maintaining that and making us inherit our actions.

And so these type of reminders, that we do believe that there is some sort living record to who we are, that it forms the true nature of value of ourselves, even if we underestimate or overestimate ourselves, there is an objective value.

We know these to be true, and would not be able to subjectively value ourselves without belief there is an objective value.

We see these signs in ourselves and in the horizons, pointing to something Greater. Something in which is the source of all it and unites all possible levels of value.

The only way to measure it is to gain vision from the vision of the Creator, the closer it is to the vision of the absolute, the closer it is to making right judgement. 

However we all been given a degree of that judgement or would not be able to condemn the likes of Saddam or praise the likes of Mandela.

When we do good acts we are in a state, there is beauty to it if good, we inherit that beauty. The truth is there infinite beauties, but there is beauty that unites all beauty, and there is souls that are upon that united beauty. It's they who manifest God the most, reminding us of God's unity thereby. But we can never grasp their value in that way God values them, because only God can see himself.

Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq (as) said: "Surely, we have revealed it on the Night of value." (97:1) The night is Fatima al-Zahra, and the Value is God. Whoever recognizes Fatima in her rightful manner will have comprehended the Night of Value. She was named Fatima because the Creation has been prevented (fatamu) from recognizing her [fully]."

[bennyboy]

Fuck off.

/thread

[Red_Wind]

What's the point of this thread?

Value is a human/social construct and is not universal.

[The Grand Nudger]

Mystic...I understand that you cannot imagine a way in which life, for example..has value...without there being an objective value or indeed "valuer".  

Some of us are simply not afflicted with that particular delusion. You are back, after a break, repeating the same comments and attempting to make the same inferences that were thoroughly discredited last time. It is not -more reasonable- this time, in repetition, and it will never -become- more reasonable than it initially was.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

"Objective value" is just another name for the properties attributed to an object(something/someone).
"Subjective value" is what humans do to fill the void of not knowing the objective value. For example: If I don't have an objective value of someone's height which is 6 feet, I will fill that void of my lack of knowledge by assigning a subjective value such as "tall" to it.

Why is this so hard to understand?
Everything we see around us are really just simple things, our poetic minds are what overly complicates them...think in simple terms, your answers will also be in simple terms...

[Longhorn]

Glad I could help

[Chad32]

You begin the thread by talking about something that can be measured using manmade tools (the moon), and then try to connect that with something that can't simply be measured with tools (value). It's like the watchmaker argument. Talking about an obviously manmade object that doesn't occur in nature by itsself, and then comparing nature to that.

Value is subjective. Most people, if given the chance to save either an old person, or a child, is going to choose the child. But if that old person is someone's beloved grandfather, and that child stabbed them with a knife once, the person is more likely to save the old person.

No, there's no way you can use a simple graph to determine the value in people. It isn't objective.

[mediocrates]

The Ultimate Value and the signs of it in ourselves?

42 for now; much more if I win the powerball jackpot tonight.  I'll let you know.

[henryp]

So, what I don't follow is why value isn't biological? To me, it seems that value, as it exists, is just a way to summarize the relationship between an object and one's biology/psychology.

As I was trying to say in the other thread, this is a real thing. My body craves food. My body needs food to live. I want to live. So we total those things up, and I assign value to the food. The value represents a the summary of tangible things to me at this moment. If I want to die, my valuing food may dip significantly. If I were dead, I wouldn't value food at all.

So what confuses me about your post, is where does value stop being just the representation of our biological/psychological relationships to things. And more importantly, when does it exist outside of the very narrow scope?

You talk of true value, but true value is not a descriptor that makes sense to me, as it doesn't represent any relationship. Or maybe it does, in that value doesn't exist without a relationship, therefore we have no true value?

I know you want to say "God values us, and he's all powerful, so that means his value is objective." But that's wandered into the magical unknowable alternate reality. Again, I suspect you use religious texts to 'know' the 'unknowable', but that seems more like optimism than knowledge as from my perspective, I don't see a need to believe anything has true value.

You covered a lot of stuff in the OP, with a lot of fuzziness. I'd be interested if you can hone in on this more specific part.

[bennyboy]

I want to apologize for my previous comment. It was to the point, but not the best argument.

Let me say this about your argument about measurements. While there is some objective value, it's relative objective value, not absolute. If you had only a single star in the universe, what size would it be? Nothing, I think: infinitely large or infinitely small or both.

When we talk about subjective and objective, we are talking about conditions of relative truth. There is really no saying that something "is what it is" without establishing some framework or context by which it may be measure.

Anyway, you talk about how God infuses everything. If God is in everything, then how can you establish a non-infinite value? Can you say that a piece of pooh, which is also divinely infused, is less great than a galaxy? If yes, why? Is God more deeply infused in some things than others? I think that would be infidel talk. If no, then all is equivalent, and value is meaningless: One is God and God is one, and all is great etc. etc.