Ash Wednesday

[chatpilot]

@ padraic I am not going to sit here and give you a list of all the books I have read just to show you that I have read books on anthropology.I have read the apocryphal books as well and it just goes to show that any religious source material is unreliable as a historic document since it is nothing more than midrash.I dont see how any study of religion from a biblical perspective could even fall under anthropology since it has nothing valid to say about human origins except that that has been said in so many other ancient myths.Mans own guess at his origins based on superstitions.

Regarding my arguments from ignorance you are the one who is ignorant.You are so brain washed by your so called higher learning that you cant even make up your mind where you stand on the whole existence of God issue lol.Agnostic atheist is how you classify yourself step back and be a little more practical and you will see that there is no God.

[Sam]

With respect Chatpilot,

If you knew what the term agnostic atheist implied (i.e. someone who is almost certain there is no god, but cannot prove it definetivley) You would see that you are, in actual fact arguing from an illogical position! Unless you have such definitive proof as to justify being a "Gnostic Atheist"

Sam

[Edit] - On checking quickly I can see that myself, EvF, Adrian and a number of other posters here all present our views as Agnostic Atheism ...

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

With respect Chatpilot,

If you knew what the term agnostic atheist implied (i.e. someone who is almost certain there is no god, but cannot prove it definetivley) You would see that you are, in actual fact arguing from an illogical position! Unless you have such definitive proof as to justify being a "Gnostic Atheist"

Sam

[Edit] - On checking quickly I can see that myself, EvF, Adrian and a number of other posters here all present our views as Agnostic Atheism ...

Thanks Sam.

What's-his-name just proved my point with another ad hominem attack and straw man.(my atheism is irrelevant to this discussion)

The difference between us seems to be not that I have a degree in anthropology (with a minor in history) from a good university* BUT that when I didn't understand what was being taught I could ask questions. THAT imo is often a big problem for autodidacts.Certainly seems to be the case for CP. I'm assuming he's self taught by from his hostility towards formal education.

I don't claim to be "right in any absolute sense. I have presented an educated opinion. CP has not, imo. I have nothing more to say to him on the matter as I don't suffer fools.--- I'm likely to say something unkind and get myself banned.



*Adelaide. Faculty head and teacher/mentor; Bruce Kapferer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Kapferer

[chatpilot]

I know what an agnostic atheist is and I personally do not consider myself one because I have studied enough to prove to myself that God does not exist.It might not be evident to you but that is your opinion.I have been a fundamental pentecostal evangelist and have studied theology from a believers perspective.After leaving the church I sought out explanations in various fields trying to find explanations for my personal experiences in the ministry.I have come to the conclusion that most of those experiences are psychological and not spiritual in nature.

Honestly speaking you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God but I am simply stating as I have above that I have found enough evidence that convinces me that he does not exist.That is all I am saying.It might not seem like a logical position to argue from but it is the position I have chosen based on my own independent studies and experiences.

[Tiberius]

Whether you have proved it to yourself or not is not the issue. Whether God actually exists or not is the issue. I take a position of Strong Agnostic Atheism, defined by myself in a blog post:

http://atheistblogger.com/2008/12/23/sca...certainty/

To explain, I see three fundamental questions that need to be addressed when considering your view of God: Belief, Knowledge, and Certainty. Belief in God is pretty simply explained, whether you believe there is a God or not. I don't believe, so I am labelled "atheist".

Knowledge is slightly trickier; you need to make a decision on whether you know that God exists (as an absolute), whether you know God doesn't, or whether you hold God as "unknown" or "unknowable". I fit in the third category, and I hold God as unknown and unknowable, so I further label myself "agnostic". I reason this by using the "alien God" argument, which is that any suitably advanced species of alien would be as Gods to us, so if Jesus himself descended from the clouds in a white beam of light to declare the end of the world, I would not be able to prove that being was a God or simply an advanced species that wanted to control us/fuck with us. If you think that God's existence/non-existence can be proven or is provable, then you are further labelled gnostic.

Certainty is slightly trickier still, and goes on the basic principle that people can be wrong about their beliefs. How certain you are of beliefs doesn't affect the absolute truth. I could be certain it is raining outside because of various evidence, but later find out it wasn't, and my mind was playing tricks on me. In this group, I class myself as "Strong" about my beliefs, that I am pretty certain (if not 100%) that my beliefs are accurate. Anything less than that you be held as "Weak".

So my position of Strong Agnostic Atheism means I don't believe in gods, I hold gods as unprovable anyway, and that I'm 100% certain they don't exist.

Judging by your last paragraph chatpilot, I'd say you fell into the same group. I think you simply misunderstand what agnosticism means, which is exactly what you said:

Honestly speaking you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God

Agnosticism has been bastardised by people who tried to use it as a "oooh, I don't know what I believe" kind of excuse. People who don't want to offend religious people but at the same time don't believe them. Luckily the more people who I redirect to Huxley's original essay (which you can find on his wikipedia article) change their minds about the word.

[Edwardo Piet]

Great post Adrian...

Btw in case you don't know I think I found a typo in your scale of belief article, from the article:

"Strong Gnostic Atheist - Disbelieves in God, holds God’s non-existence as provable (or provable), and is 100% certain about its non-existence."

Just in case you didn't notice and thought it was at all important (and that its not too pedantic of me to point it out).

My bolding of course.

I am sure you meant provable (or proven) right?

[Tiberius]

Wow, that typo has been there a while

Cheers for pointing it out.

[Edwardo Piet]

Np. I dunno I'm weird I seem to have typo eyes sometimes....

I pointed out a typo on the Orbital website like 3 years ago.....and it wasn't that small either....

Out of all the tons of Orbital interviews...in one of them the same para was there twice in a row...like it had been copied/pasted.

I am the only one who seemed to notice (or at least notice and point it out) I emailed Orbital website admin (Steve Loopz, http://www.loopz.co.uk) and he corrected it it was cool :p

If only I could apply it to my OWN typos sometimes lol.

[chatpilot]

Adrian I know what agnosticism is as you have seen I pointed out in my last paragraph about gods existence or non-existence being unprovable.I must clarify that when I argue about the existence of god I am mostly referring to the Christian God.I am sorry for the confusion.But unlike yourself Adrian I dont consider aliens as gods but as a higher civilization.I have heard theories about the how the hieroglyphics of the ancient Egyptians show signs of possible alien contact by their drawings of saucers and strange looking beings.Its a possibility but I have never included them in my idea of god or gods.

As far as us being created by some invisible bieng up in the sky I am convinced that all of the ancient religions are nothing but fabrications of man trying to explain most of all origins such as the universe,life,etc.Hence my view that man created god and not the other way around.

[infidel666]

I think that there is a difference between being convinced that God does not exist and being a gnostic atheist. A gnostic atheist KNOWS (i.e., has proof positive that is OBJECTIVELY undeniable) that god does not exist. As an agnostic atheist, I too am convinced, for all practical purposes, that there is no god. But I will not go so far as to say that I KNOW there is no god. Such a conclusion must be reached by FAITH, and I don't do faith.