Brainstorm

[Excited Penguin]

Same goes for being anti-muslim.

Not really.

And comparing them with racially bigoted white supremacist Nazis is particularly inappropriate considering that racially there is no majority in Islam, every race is a minority (30% white, 23% black, 21% Asian, 6% Hispanic, 19% other or mixed race). If they were being judged by the average American, that percentage of whites would drop considerably given how many of us think that Arabs are too brown to be white.

You say you're just an antitheist, and being anti-Islam (as well as anti-Christianity, anti-Hinduism, and so forth) is consistent with that. However, being anti-Muslim goes further, into being against the people.

That was poor phrasing, so I'm not about to defend that statement.

[Mister Agenda]

One of the most intelligent, decent men I've ever encountered is a Muslim doctor who helped to train me.

Things like this are the reason I don't like to generalize.

That's great for you. I'm not saying Muslims can't be decent people - I know for a fact a lot of them are. I'm saying I wouldn't like to be friends with one in real life. These are adults who have chosen to follow certain ideas. Those ideas include intolerance towards me as an atheist, among other more despicable things. If you are able to look beyond that, good for you. I am not.

Substitute 'indoctrinated with certain ideas since before they could walk' and you might have a more tolerant attitude concerning the ideas these adults have 'chosen' to follow.

I have Muslim friends who know I'm an atheist who aren't intolerant towards me at all. I don't know any Ahmadiyya Muslims in RL, but they believe even atheists ultimately enter heaven.

Muslims are too diverse to generalize about. Muslims in one country are different from Muslims in another. Muslims who follow different traditions are different. Muslims in developed areas are different from Muslims in developing countries. Muslims in war torn countries are different from Muslims in countries that have been at peace. There are Muslims who follow one set of Hadiths, or a different set, or none at all. There are Muslims who are serious about their faith and Muslims who are casual about it. Muslim majority countries are different depending on their history and what kind of Muslims inhabit them (did you know that there are more countries that ban the burqa than require it?).

There's a 'typical Muslim' in Western Media, but that Muslim doesn't much resemble the Muslims in RL around the world who never make the news. We don't have to look beyond 'the terrible ideas of Muslims' to be friends with them. It's easy to find Muslims who don't have such terrible ideas, especially in America. The largest local mosque where I live is run by an Egyptian Imam I don't like. He's too conservative for my taste. So I'm not friends with him. That doesn't stop me from being friends with other Muslims.

You may have noticed a pattern of people here who have Muslim friends having a higher opinion of Muslims. It's a pattern that tends to hold across the board with any minority: the more personal experience members of majorities have with them, the harder it is for them to hold poorly-founded beliefs about them.

[Mister Agenda]

EP, I am good friends with a Muslim and he is nothing like a Nazi. He's a doctor and a super nice person who will do anything to help another person. He doesn't believe killing people is good, and completely disagrees with everything Isis does.

I'm glad. I still wouldn't trust him as long as he calls himself a Muslim.

Try substituting 'Jew' for 'Muslim' and maybe you'll get a better idea of what you sound like.

[Mister Agenda]

The same as many Christians.

Again, some are not representative of all.

I didn't explicitly say all Muslims are bad. But there is a significant amount that hold despicable views. I'm not about to discern which of them are good and which aren't. Keep in mind we are merely talking here about who I would have a beer with. I wouldn't have one with a Muslim. That doesn't mean I don't believe they have rights same as everyone else. All that means is I wouldn't like to be friends with one.

I live in South Carolina. I've heard very similar comments to yours before, only it was concerning a different minority.

[Mister Agenda]

Lol, I'm white as fuck.

That was code for you're a piece of shit. I'm surprised that went right over your head.

I disagree. Nothing wrong with being open about what race you are, especially if someone was misunderstanding it, which is easy to do on the interwebz.

[Mister Agenda]

What a naïve thing to say.

Although the antitheists who think a police state is a small price to pay for eradicating religion are a small minority, it's not small enough by a long shot. Here when someone suggests an extreme 'solution', they're kidding. That's not always the case in the wild.

I hope you understand that most anti-theists, including me would never advocate any sort of a police state. It just happens that we aren't too busy smoking weed to notice that there are powerful theists who do want to make our country a police state, and they will get it if they are allowed to act unopposed. When we rally to protect reproductive and bodily autonomy rights, protest the pollution of the science classroom with unscientific nonsense, sue to protect children from being forced to deal with their prayer rituals in their schools, or hang billboards to encourage other atheists to speak out, none of this is the practice of totalitarianism.

Absolutely, you generally have to go on Reddit or Huff Po to run into the really toxic ones.

We know that atheism flourishes where people are the most educated, safe, and financially secure. Religion will never be entirely eradicated, but doing what we can to educate, protect, and provide a financial safety net will probably reduce it more than atheist proselytization will, though doing what little we can to teach and promote critical thinking skills is an important part of educating.

[Mister Agenda]

Religion declines as education improves. It is logical enough to assume that this trend will continue worldwide, and the problem will take care of itself. Our lifespans are usually too short and fleeting to see significant change, but significant change has happened before us and will continue on after us.

Now, fuck religion. Let's brainstorm how we're going to feed the world as desertification accelerates and human population continuing to rise.

History says otherwise. Religion never, ever withers and rolls over, it doubles down and it rallies its goons with a vengeance. Have you really not noticed what's been going on in Texas, California, and Tennesee? Our chances of having evangelical asshat Cruz in the White House a year from now just became ~50% likely in Iowa!

I'm not looking to start a fight, I'm just saying we really can't afford to be so confident or cocky about this - the more that progress is made, the more there will always be the need for greater vigilance.

History is where he's getting it from: generational change. You're looking at current events and you see the power that Evangelical Christians have, and it looks like things can only get worse. But what you're seeing is death throes. Evangelical Christianity is not declining as fast as other forms of Christianity in America, but it is declining. They know it, they see their power slipping away, and it motivates them to vote in high percentages, but if the Millenials voted in the same proportion as the Baby Boomers, it would be a sweep for Democrats, and the percentage of Millenials who vote is only going to go up.

It's possible that Cruz might win the presidency, but demographically, the window for someone winning by pandering to Evangelicals is closing, if it hasn't already.

Baby Boomers will be mostly gone in 20 years (though I hope to still be around at age 74, I was born near the end of the boom). We already have Generation X people running for president. You're right about being vigilant, it's very important that this election in particular not go to any of the Republicans (not least because of the likelihood of SCOTUS appointments), but it's going to get better. The Republicans at some point will have to moderate their social conservatism or they'll never get the presidency again.

[Mister Agenda]

You are a grown up, not a three year old. If you cannot understand simple, easy to use English, then there is no hope for you. And I don't necessarily have a problem with you, but your attitude towards others. While you are still young enough to get it, learn how to not judge people based on your preconceived notions of what you think they are or are not. Otherwise, you won't get very far in this life, with anything.

You're trying to make it as if Islam is a benign set of ideas. It isn't. Insofar as one is a Muslim he has some problematic beliefs that need to be challenged. Same holds true for almost any other religion, including Christianity and Judaism. It just so happens that I have more reason to be wary of Muslims than of anyone else at the moment. If any Muslim doesn't like that, they should either deal with the problems in their own communities and revise the way themselves and/or other people adhere to their Muslim faith or cease to identify as Muslims.

If you're an American, the odds of you being shot by a non-Muslim American are about 5,000 times the odds of you being shot by a Muslim American.

[Mister Agenda]

Also, I can think of at least one Muslim I would very much like to have a beer with. And that is Maajid Nawaz.

Good choice, though I doubt he drinks beer. I'm an anti-Islamist myself.

[Mister Agenda]

I'm anti-Islam EP, but I'm not anti-all Muslims. I'm against religions but not against religious people.

The above was your original statement.

So are you just against Islam or do you really not feel comfortable around any Muslims at all? Does an environment involving a random Muslim really make you feel unsafe or not?

That's hard to answer. Life isn't that black and white.

Your being against religions does mean you're against religious people as well - insofar as they are religious. I'm sorry, but P.C. culture has brainwashed you into ridiculous language games.

My gf is not an atheist. I have no problem loving her. No language games are involved at all.