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RE: Hello from Nathan
February 24, 2011 at 6:00 am
(February 23, 2011 at 9:34 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: A....a... OK so I can't think of something to call you but hello! Also, may I add, your beliefs are nuts and impractical. They are a poison bestowed onto the human race. Have a nice time here, by the way. You may add, if I may ask you why you think so?
(February 23, 2011 at 9:51 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And what "evidence" might that be? All of it. What I am looking for here is any data that does not fit with how Christianity describes the world, or an argument that demonstrates that Christianity is logically inconsistent. If there is just one of these things, then Christianity is an untenable belief-system.
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RE: Hello from Nathan
February 24, 2011 at 6:16 am
(This post was last modified: February 24, 2011 at 6:17 am by KichigaiNeko.)
(February 24, 2011 at 6:00 am)Nathan Wrote: (February 23, 2011 at 9:51 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And what "evidence" might that be? All of it. What I am looking for here is any data that does not fit with how Christianity describes the world, or an argument that demonstrates that Christianity is logically inconsistent. If there is just one of these things, then Christianity is an untenable belief-system.
Then you have come to the right forum...enjoy your stay here ...please check out the Site Specific http://atheistforums.org/forum-22.html forum for all the rules and regs we all have to abide by. 
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Hello from Nathan
February 24, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Quote:All of it. What I am looking for here is any data that does not fit with how Christianity describes the world, or an argument that demonstrates that Christianity is logically inconsistent. If there is just one of these things, then Christianity is an untenable belief-system.
Well, I'm not sure how xtianity "describes" the world...and even if it does it describes it 2,000 ( or at least 1,500 ) years ago. As far as logic goes I have found that logic usually breaks down in the opening premise. Xtians assume that everything they have been told is true and if you accept that as a given then it is possible to use logic to reach any conclusion you wish. It still fails to rectify the problem that the premise is false.
" There is no possibility whatsoever of reconciling science and theology, at least in Christendom. Either Jesus rose from the dead or he didn't. If he did, then Christianity becomes plausible; if he did not, then it is sheer nonsense. I defy any genuine scientist to say that he believes in the Resurrection, or indeed in any other cardinal dogma of the Christian system.
-- H L Mencken
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RE: Hello from Nathan
February 25, 2011 at 2:47 am
Hope I didn't scare him off? I was even trying to be nice.
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RE: Hello from Nathan
February 25, 2011 at 3:36 am
I know that almost scared me off min  . Welcome Nathan
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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RE: Hello from Nathan
February 25, 2011 at 12:29 pm
Maybe I should just go back to being myself?
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RE: Hello from Nathan
February 25, 2011 at 2:56 pm
(February 23, 2011 at 9:15 pm)Nathan Wrote: I also hope to meet like-minded people who disagree with me, and I am sure that there will be many here.
Quite right about that.  Welcome!
Our Daily Train blog at jeremystyron.com
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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir
"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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RE: Hello from Nathan
February 25, 2011 at 6:38 pm
Welcome along, Nathan. I saw your name in the title of the thread and was all like "No way... one of my brothers couldn't be joining... could he??? 0.o", and so I had to check it out. I admit mild disappointment.
And off I go to start another game of Master of Orion... playing as the Silicoid is REALLY addicting. Oh, and Rift's head-start is out and played it on Ultra settings yesterday XD Was almost as fun as MoO, and I'll definitely be pulling the plug on WoW. Sucks on home internet though (rifts are basically really chaotic 20-40 man raids every time they pop up right now XD). Have a good time at the forum, Nathan-that-is-not-my-brother-unfortunately 
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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RE: Hello from Nathan
February 25, 2011 at 7:09 pm
(This post was last modified: February 25, 2011 at 7:11 pm by Nathan.)
Hi Minimalist, apologies for taking a while to get back to you. You've not scared me off yet!
(February 24, 2011 at 1:11 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Well, I'm not sure how xtianity "describes" the world...and even if it does it describes it 2,000 ( or at least 1,500 ) years ago. As far as logic goes I have found that logic usually breaks down in the opening premise. Xtians assume that everything they have been told is true and if you accept that as a given then it is possible to use logic to reach any conclusion you wish. It still fails to rectify the problem that the premise is false. Christianity describes the world in two senses: one, it claims that there are particular phenomenon (e.g., an external world to human conciousness, a temporally finite universe, order and structure given by laws of logic and science, moral and aesthetic values, human knowledge, etc.) and two, it gives meaning to the phenomenon we experience, in terms of God's relation to them (e.g. the universe appears designed and beautiful because it is designed and beautiful, the universe is ordered and structured so that it can be known and inhabited fruitfully, etc.). These are claims that apply independently of time. Then there are also particular historical claims as you point out, centred around the people of Israel, Jesus and the Church, which also fall into the categories of phenomenon and interpretation.
So you could use logic and evidence against these claims in two different ways: firstly against a claim that a particular phenomenon is actual - perhaps there is evidence that the universe is in fact eternal in the past, or the idea of finite temporality is logically impossible; secondly against a claim that a particular interpretation of the world is correct - perhaps there is evidence that moral values are grounded in something other that God's nature, or that the idea of moral values being grounded in this way is logically inconsistent. In the same way, I do my best to apply logic and evidence against non-Christian descriptions of the world.
Quote:"There is no possibility whatsoever of reconciling science and theology, at least in Christendom. Either Jesus rose from the dead or he didn't. If he did, then Christianity becomes plausible; if he did not, then it is sheer nonsense. I defy any genuine scientist to say that he believes in the Resurrection, or indeed in any other cardinal dogma of the Christian system.
-- H L Mencken
I can't see why there is a conflict between believing in miracles and being a "genuine scientist" - I'd be interested in why you think there is one. Most likely we have a different view of what science is.
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RE: Hello from Nathan
February 25, 2011 at 7:25 pm
(February 25, 2011 at 7:09 pm)Nathan Wrote: I can't see why there is a conflict between believing in miracles and being a "genuine scientist" - I'd be interested in why you think there is one. Most likely we have a different view of what science is.
Because miracles break the laws of physics. People don't tend to resurrect once they are pronounced dead except in holy books, or fiction, which are mostly same.
Our Daily Train blog at jeremystyron.com
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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir
"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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