The backbreaker

[Wyrd of Gawd]

---

Respectfully, Cath, that's horse-hockey about the "lifetime of mockery". Solomon was the second child born of their liaison, and he ascended to the throne.

---

Let's be really clear, Rocket: David married Bathsheba after Uriah was killed. Consequently, Solomon was a legitimate son and heir to David's throne.

2 Samuel 11:26-27
26 When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. 27 After the time of mourning was over, David had her brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing David had done displeased the Lord.

---

And whether or not that kid "ascended into heaven", it was still a *baby* who was tortured to death (via lingering disease) in order to punish his father. It clearly states that, A->B. 

"Tortured"? You know this for a fact how, Rocket? "Tortured" has all sorts of negative connotations, and you'll have to do more than simply assert that God "tortured" the child in order to make your point. Yes, ch. 12 discusses the matter in detail, and yes, God caused the illness which resulted in his death. But merely causing the child to die is not proof that God is a psychopath. Only people who do not hope for life after death would see things this way. You're in that camp, aren't you?

It's either one of two things: God is real and a psychopath, or else God is imaginary and this stuff about disease being the wrath of a deity is as ignorant as the people who claimed lightning striking someone was the wrath of Thor.

Or that God showed mercy to the child by taking him to heaven quickly where he has been enjoying the Beatific vision ever since. The either-or that you propose does not admit this possibility.

But that is due to YOUR presuppositions, isn't it?

Oh, one more point before I forget...your signature...some Protestant spoke to you about how it's not possible for someone to lose his or her salvation. I realize that you were raised in a Protestant home, but "once saved always saved" is a relatively modern Protestant heresy, and "Bible Christians" ought to know better.

In Romans 11:22, Paul says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

This is not the language of "once saved always saved."

---

According to the Babylonian Talmud the pedophile David knocked up Bathsheba when she was six years old.

[athrock]

Firstly I missed the part where you address this thread. You ignored it when I repeated it here:

Is God above the law?

If yes, then why send his son to die?  You address the perspective of Jesus but leave God's half out.  So yet another half assed answer. Tell me WHY God had this happen when it was completely unnecessary. If you CANNOT, if all you can say is that I have to ask God,then your beliefs cannot be drafted in any kind of sensible manner.  I.e. your beliefs are irrational.

Is a painting greater than the painting he creates? Of course not...that which is created is less than its creator.

God is above the law. He is the maker of law.

Now, why do you claim that the Cross was completely unnecessary?

If God is not above the law, why did he break his own law by torturing and killing David's son as punishment for David?

God did not torture David's son. I have written extensively about this in my posts to RocketSurgeon.

And once again, if you want to associate pedophilia with homosexuality then I have to ask: are you attracted to 8 year olds of the opposite sex?  What percentage of the heterosexual population is?  Are you saying that homosexuals have a higher tendency to be pedophiles?

You are in error concerning the average age of the victims; most were teenagers, and the crime was not, therefore, pedophilia. Additionally, why were most of the victims male? The Catholic Church permits girls to serve at the altar, so why were there not more female victims???

Because these crimes were committed by homosexual priests against young men...not against pre-pubescent children.

What is my source for the popes being in on the conspiracy?  Well, the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, a cardinal who presumably is ranked only below the pope and no one else, made rape victims sign a vow of silence. I.e. a coverup.  Do you believe the pope was unaware of this?  If so, why didn't the pope fire his ass when this came out?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...e-vow.html

Dunno. But for a real smoking gun, you have to prove that the pope(s) not only knew that priests were molesting young men but that they also condoned THAT activity. Otherwise, at best you can only say that the popes were not courageous enough in how they addressed the problem.

Unfortunately for your side, rabid atheists are making such wild accusations concerning the Church, the priesthood, celibacy, etc. that more thoughtful voices are being drowned out. This is clearly the case in this forum.

A U.S. Department of Education report issued in 2004 examined a number of American studies into the prevalence of sexual misconduct by school staff. They found that between 3.5% and 50.3% of students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career. [color=#3366ff]They found that teachers, coaches, substitute teachers were the most common offenders.

Wow, between 3.5% and 50.3% are you kidding me?  That is your victory?

Couldn't I just as easily say that between 3.5% and 50.3% of priests are rapists and still be correct?  Or how about between 3.5% and 100% of priests are rapists. That is correct, lol. Now look I've magically put priests back in front without even doing anything.

You're an idiot.

Estimates on the number of priests involved in these scandals are in the range of 1-2% of all priest worldwide. Yet, hardly a day goes by when we don't hear of some teacher being accused of having sex with her minor student(s). And those are the heterosexual reports. Have you forgotten the Penn State scandal so quickly? Homosexuals are molesting young people at an alarming rate in a broad spectrum of institutions - Boy Scouts, swim teams, Little League baseball, and, of course, the public school system. Wherever there are kids, the predators will gather.

I know you really want to pin this exclusively on the Catholic Church, but the facts simply won't allow that.

If you bother to acknowledge them, that is.

[athrock]

Wishful thinking is a powerful thing, Constable.

You keep telling yourself what you want to believe, okay? 

Hey you're the one with the imaginary friend, you're the one defending an organisation who chose as a leader less then ten years ago a man who had told the rest of them to protect criminals against inquiries from police organisations about their crimes, you're the one that constantly comes on to threads in a vain attempt to either derail them so their messages don't come across or to handwave away reality because it disagrees with your delusions, and finally you're the one who constantly tells us that evil is moral.

Better take the plank out of your own eye before you try take the mote of dust out of mine, it has blinded you to the truth.

Of course. And what "truth" is that, Dorf? That God does not exist? Is that what you believe?

[Nihilist Virus]

Is a painting greater than the painting he creates? Of course not...that which is created is less than its creator.

God is above the law. He is the maker of law.

Now, why do you claim that the Cross was completely unnecessary?

Because God could've painted whatever he wanted, how are you so thick?

If we are under the law, but God isn't, God can simply say "abracadabra" and we are no longer under the law, or we are forgiven, or whatever.

If he cannot do this, it is only because he is bound by the law.

You are in error concerning the average age of the victims; most were teenagers, and the crime was not, therefore, pedophilia. Additionally, why were most of the victims male? The Catholic Church permits girls to serve at the altar, so why were there not more female victims???

Because these crimes were committed by homosexual priests against young men...not against pre-pubescent children.

Let's just assume everything you're saying is correct.  You're still left with a massive amount of rapes covered up by high ranking members of the catholic church.

Dunno. But for a real smoking gun, you have to prove that the pope(s) not only knew that priests were molesting young men but that they also condoned THAT activity. Otherwise, at best you can only say that the popes were not courageous enough in how they addressed the problem.

Unfortunately for your side, rabid atheists are making such wild accusations concerning the Church, the priesthood, celibacy, etc. that more thoughtful voices are being drowned out. This is clearly the case in this forum.

The pope was traced to at least one coverup, although he was not pope at the time.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...02026.html

Pardon me for being inclined to believe there are more.

You're an idiot.

Estimates on the number of priests involved in these scandals are in the range of 1-2% of all priest worldwide.

LIE.  The church's own estimates are double that.

Yet, hardly a day goes by when we don't hear of some teacher being accused of having sex with her minor student(s). And those are the heterosexual reports. Have you forgotten the Penn State scandal so quickly? Homosexuals are molesting young people at an alarming rate in a broad spectrum of institutions - Boy Scouts, swim teams, Little League baseball, and, of course, the public school system. Wherever there are kids, the predators will gather.

Haven't forgotten Penn State or any of that.  Not sure how it's relevant.  In some sense my problem with the church has nothing to do with the abuses, but the COVER UP.

If you want to compare them to other things in the world and show that they're no different, why, then, do you expect me to believe that they are different about knowing the truth about life, the universe, and everything?

I know you really want to pin this exclusively on the Catholic Church, but the facts simply won't allow that.

And the facts are that a priest covered up at least one rape scandal and then God chose him to be the pope.

[athrock]

Is a painting greater than the painting he creates? Of course not...that which is created is less than its creator.

God is above the law. He is the maker of law.

Now, why do you claim that the Cross was completely unnecessary?

Because God could've painted whatever he wanted, how are you so thick?

If we are under the law, but God isn't, God can simply say "abracadabra" and we are no longer under the law, or we are forgiven, or whatever.

If he cannot do this, it is only because he is bound by the law.

Well, He COULD have said "abracadabra", but He didn't. And you're right, God COULD just say, "abracadabra" and forgive us all (thereby demonstrating perfect mercy), but He won't because God is also "Perfect Justice", and perfect justice demands payment for our sins against an all-Holy God.

How to handle this? Well, at the cross, perfect Mercy and perfect Justice meet. We are forgiven and God's justice is satisfied. We could not pay the price, so God paid it for us, and He did do willingly.

It seems odd that this bothers you for some reason.

You are in error concerning the average age of the victims; most were teenagers, and the crime was not, therefore, pedophilia. Additionally, why were most of the victims male? The Catholic Church permits girls to serve at the altar, so why were there not more female victims???

Because these crimes were committed by homosexual priests against young men...not against pre-pubescent children.

Let's just assume everything you're saying is correct.  You're still left with a massive amount of rapes covered up by high ranking members of the catholic church.

Indeed. The bishops erred in thinking that homosexuality could be "cured" (this began in the 50's when less was understood), and they lacked the courage to out these gay priests by turning them over to the police. This was a huge mistake. Finally, I also think that Satan played a hand in this by infiltrating the Church with bishops who were/are sympathetic to the homosexual agenda. I am not alone in this belief.

Dunno. But for a real smoking gun, you have to prove that the pope(s) not only knew that priests were molesting young men but that they also condoned THAT activity. Otherwise, at best you can only say that the popes were not courageous enough in how they addressed the problem.

Unfortunately for your side, rabid atheists are making such wild accusations concerning the Church, the priesthood, celibacy, etc. that more thoughtful voices are being drowned out. This is clearly the case in this forum.

The pope was traced to at least one coverup, although he was not pope at the time.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...02026.html

Pardon me for being inclined to believe there are more.

Thank you for the link. I will give that a read.

Estimates on the number of priests involved in these scandals are in the range of 1-2% of all priest worldwide.

LIE.  The church's own estimates are double that.

Oh? This would be news to me. You have a source, of course...please?

Yet, hardly a day goes by when we don't hear of some teacher being accused of having sex with her minor student(s). And those are the heterosexual reports. Have you forgotten the Penn State scandal so quickly? Homosexuals are molesting young people at an alarming rate in a broad spectrum of institutions - Boy Scouts, swim teams, Little League baseball, and, of course, the public school system. Wherever there are kids, the predators will gather.

Haven't forgotten Penn State or any of that.  Not sure how it's relevant.  In some sense my problem with the church has nothing to do with the abuses, but the COVER UP.

If you want to compare them to other things in the world and show that they're no different, why, then, do you expect me to believe that they are different about knowing the truth about life, the universe, and everything?

You make a good point. The scandal compounds the problem dramatically. However, we have to stay clear that the sins of individual priests and bishops does not diminish the authority of the Church itself. Jesus told his disciples to obey the teachings of the Jewish leaders (to whom God had given legitimate authority), but he also warned them not to DO what those leaders did because "they do not practice what they preach." Jesus understood that our human leaders will always fall short of the perfection we'd like for them to have. After all, they are, like all of us, only human.

I know you really want to pin this exclusively on the Catholic Church, but the facts simply won't allow that.

And the facts are that a priest covered up at least one rape scandal and then God chose him to be the pope.

So YOU say.  

The article you asked me to read is chock-full of wiggle-words and phrases like:

"there is just one case so far that can be traced directly to Ratzinger's tenure as a bishop"

Ratzinger allowed a child abuser into his diocese for psychiatric treatment, and the priest was reassigned to a parish"

It's unclear whether Ratzinger personally signed off on the assignment, but he seems to have acted more or less like most bishops at the time

As pope, Benedict has blamed the media for exaggerating the scandals, yet he has moved more aggressively against abusers

as Ratzinger came to realize the scope of the abuse, he expedited the defrocking of abusive priests and reopened the Maciel case

SUMMATION:
There's no direct connection, and as Pope, he moved to prosecute more aggressively...that's not exactly a stinging denunciation, NV.

[scoobysnack]

I've spoken with Christians who are OK with contradictions in the Bible, Christians who believe in the Big Bang and unguided evolution, and Christians who disregard the unsavory things in the Old Testament. But I have never seen a good response to my backbreaker here.  The Christian retreats behind the shield of faith, no longer even sure what that faith is in.

It's a simple question:
Is God above the law or not?

It would seem to me that the answer to this question is an obvious no. Jesus had to die because of the weight of the law. If God was above the law then he would just forgive everyone without sending his son to pay for the debts.

But then there is a problem. Deuteronomy 24:16 says,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

This, presumably, is directly from God.

Then in 2 Samuel 12:13-20, David's son is killed by God because of sins committed by David.

So it looks like God actually is above the law.  Why, then, did Jesus die on the cross?  Surely it was not for his own amusement.  Ultimately there was no reason for it since God, being above the law, can wipe the slate clean with no need of a human sacrifice.

Therefore Christianity, a belief system based entirely on the "fact" that Jesus rose from a death that was necessary for our salvation, renders itself pointless.

God is the law, and regulates the universe. Don't play by the rules and you will see it manifest in the physical realm, but when you move into the spiritual realm the laws will be revealed, and ignorance of the law is no excuse at that point in your existence.

Bar Breaker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoMQBeaDNlc

[athrock]

And these bombshells from your article:

An extensive 2007 investigation by the Associated Press showed that sexual abuse of children in U.S. schools was "widespread," and most of it was never reported or punished. And in Portland, Ore., last week, a jury reached a $1.4 million verdict against the Boy Scouts of America in a trial that showed that since the 1920s, Scouts officials kept "perversion files" on suspected abusers but kept them secret.

"We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, told Newsweek. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."

Part of the issue is that the Catholic Church is so tightly organized and keeps such meticulous records -- many of which have come to light voluntarily or through court orders -- that it can yield a fairly reliable portrait of its personnel and abuse over the decades. Other institutions, and most other religions, are more decentralized and harder to analyze or prosecute.

And this:

5. The crisis will compel U.S. Catholics to leave the church.

When the initial revelations of widespread sexual abuse by clergy emerged in 2002, many believed that Catholics would abandon the church en masse, or at least send the institution toward insolvency by withholding donations. But then, as now, American Catholics turned out to be an unpredictable lot. Though critical of the bishops and the Vatican, Catholics tend to love their local parishes and priests. And even if they don't heed all church mandates, they don't easily shed all the cultural and sacramental markers of their faith.

A 2007 Pew survey of the religious landscape in America found that among Catholics who had left the church, the abuse crisis ranked low on the list of reasons -- well behind church teachings on homosexuality, the role of women, abortion and contraception. And a 2008 poll by Georgetown University's Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate showed that even the bishops had enjoyed a rebound in approval, with satisfaction with the hierarchy growing from 58 percent in 2004 to 72 percent in 2008.

Wow.

Confirmation of just about everything I have ever said on the Priest Scandal all in one place.

Thanks, NV! 


And btw - notice the top reasons why people leave the Catholic Church...they supported:

Gay Agenda
Feminist Agenda
Abortion on demand
Contraception

Hmmmm...disputes over actual doctrine don't seem to appear anywhere in the list. People leave because the Church says "no" to the sins they want to enjoy.

[Cecelia]

Yeah, must not be because of church doctrine based on those things. No, they just want to 'sin'! You know, because they can't possibly not be gigantic douchebag assholes like you and think that it's none of their business denying two people of the same sex from getting married.

If you were any more of a tool, they could use you to nail the nails in Jesus's cross.

[Nihilist Virus]

Well, He COULD have said "abracadabra", but He didn't. And you're right, God COULD just say, "abracadabra" and forgive us all (thereby demonstrating perfect mercy), but He won't because God is also "Perfect Justice", and perfect justice demands payment for our sins against an all-Holy God.

How to handle this? Well, at the cross, perfect Mercy and perfect Justice meet. We are forgiven and God's justice is satisfied. We could not pay the price, so God paid it for us, and He did do willingly.

It seems odd that this bothers you for some reason.

Does perfect justice include murdering David's son?

Indeed. The bishops erred in thinking that homosexuality could be "cured" (this began in the 50's when less was understood), and they lacked the courage to out these gay priests by turning them over to the police. This was a huge mistake. Finally, I also think that Satan played a hand in this by infiltrating the Church with bishops who were/are sympathetic to the homosexual agenda. I am not alone in this belief.

They erred in protecting criminals.  Stop shifting the focus.

You make a good point. The scandal compounds the problem dramatically. However, we have to stay clear that the sins of individual priests and bishops does not diminish the authority of the Church itself. Jesus told his disciples to obey the teachings of the Jewish leaders (to whom God had given legitimate authority), but he also warned them not to DO what those leaders did because "they do not practice what they preach." Jesus understood that our human leaders will always fall short of the perfection we'd like for them to have. After all, they are, like all of us, only human.

Yet God appoints the pope.

SUMMATION:
There's no direct connection, and as Pope, he moved to prosecute more aggressively...that's not exactly a stinging denunciation, NV.

No direct connection.  Meanwhile thousands of rapists in the church get off scott free and in your mind the pope is completely innocent.

And these bombshells from your article:

An extensive 2007 investigation by the Associated Press showed that sexual abuse of children in U.S. schools was "widespread," and most of it was never reported or punished. And in Portland, Ore., last week, a jury reached a $1.4 million verdict against the Boy Scouts of America in a trial that showed that since the 1920s, Scouts officials kept "perversion files" on suspected abusers but kept them secret.

"We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, told Newsweek. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."

Part of the issue is that the Catholic Church is so tightly organized and keeps such meticulous records -- many of which have come to light voluntarily or through court orders -- that it can yield a fairly reliable portrait of its personnel and abuse over the decades. Other institutions, and most other religions, are more decentralized and harder to analyze or prosecute.

And this:

5. The crisis will compel U.S. Catholics to leave the church.

When the initial revelations of widespread sexual abuse by clergy emerged in 2002, many believed that Catholics would abandon the church en masse, or at least send the institution toward insolvency by withholding donations. But then, as now, American Catholics turned out to be an unpredictable lot. Though critical of the bishops and the Vatican, Catholics tend to love their local parishes and priests. And even if they don't heed all church mandates, they don't easily shed all the cultural and sacramental markers of their faith.

A 2007 Pew survey of the religious landscape in America found that among Catholics who had left the church, the abuse crisis ranked low on the list of reasons -- well behind church teachings on homosexuality, the role of women, abortion and contraception. And a 2008 poll by Georgetown University's Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate showed that even the bishops had enjoyed a rebound in approval, with satisfaction with the hierarchy growing from 58 percent in 2004 to 72 percent in 2008.

Wow.

Confirmation of just about everything I have ever said on the Priest Scandal all in one place.

Thanks, NV! 


And btw - notice the top reasons why people leave the Catholic Church...they supported:

Gay Agenda
Feminist Agenda
Abortion on demand
Contraception

Hmmmm...disputes over actual doctrine don't seem to appear anywhere in the list. People leave because the Church says "no" to the sins they want to enjoy.

No disputes in doctrine. Meanwhile I proved that the crucifixion was pointless.

[athrock]

Well, He COULD have said "abracadabra", but He didn't. And you're right, God COULD just say, "abracadabra" and forgive us all (thereby demonstrating perfect mercy), but He won't because God is also "Perfect Justice", and perfect justice demands payment for our sins against an all-Holy God.

How to handle this? Well, at the cross, perfect Mercy and perfect Justice meet. We are forgiven and God's justice is satisfied. We could not pay the price, so God paid it for us, and He did do willingly.

It seems odd that this bothers you for some reason.

Does perfect justice include murdering David's son?

God did not murder David's son. This has been explained at length in this thread.

However, perfect justice may demand that someone die. Jesus died for this reason, for example. David's sin sin (like all sin) required both eternal and temporal punishment. God forgave David's eternal punishment, but the temporal (in time) punishment was the death of the child. However, my contention is that while David (and Bathsheba) suffered as a result of the child's death, the child may have actually been spared a life of suffering.

Indeed. The bishops erred in thinking that homosexuality could be "cured" (this began in the 50's when less was understood), and they lacked the courage to out these gay priests by turning them over to the police. This was a huge mistake. Finally, I also think that Satan played a hand in this by infiltrating the Church with bishops who were/are sympathetic to the homosexual agenda. I am not alone in this belief.

They erred in protecting criminals.  Stop shifting the focus.

Yes, they did, and I have said so. However, the fact that they made a mistake in judgement does not automatically make them complicit in the crimes themselves. They simply handled the situation badly. Folks who want to continue crucifying the Bishops and the Catholic Church as a whole are guilty of unforgiveness.

You make a good point. The scandal compounds the problem dramatically. However, we have to stay clear that the sins of individual priests and bishops does not diminish the authority of the Church itself. Jesus told his disciples to obey the teachings of the Jewish leaders (to whom God had given legitimate authority), but he also warned them not to DO what those leaders did because "they do not practice what they preach." Jesus understood that our human leaders will always fall short of the perfection we'd like for them to have. After all, they are, like all of us, only human.

Yet God appoints the pope.

Indeed. Thank you for noticing. Most folks in this forum deny that God even exists...much less interacts with us in such a tangible manner. As you point out, God works with the clay to make the best pots possible. They are far from perfect, however.

No disputes in doctrine. Meanwhile I proved that the crucifixion was pointless.

Um...no...you simply clarified that you don't understand why God would choose the Cross v. any other approach He might have chosen.