UK Brexit, questions from an American

[Thumpalumpacus]

California allows citizens to make laws via referenda. It makes a clusterfuck of state law.

Switzerland fairs pretty well with it. Citizens, surprisingly so, often vote for what seems the less popular option. But, then again, the Swiss have that kind of system for a very long time and are conditioned to make up their minds. It's also what I would call, a very silent country. I would be hard pressed to say who's ruling there right now.

I can't speak to the state of education and civic interest in Switzerland, but in California -- and this will sound like a shitty thing to say, but it's true (and probably of many other American states as well) -- the catastrophic state of education means that the masses of voters are terribly unqualified to write or endorse laws. There's a distinct ignorance of, if not disregard for, the Law of Unintended Consequences.

[dyresand]

here this should sum up why it's good for Britain to leave the EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW0LEtW_6sI

[I_am_not_mafia]

If the UK votes to leave then I'm going to claim dual citizenship. Even though I wasn't born in Germany I am still eligible because my father is a native born German. This gives me and my husband access to the EU.

I don't fault anyone for wanting to vote to leave because there have been stories in the media for many years now about the amount of money spent on EU membership and how we can't write our own laws. But it's also known that the ones who are funding the Leave campaign and the government are trying to rid us of all the costly laws that make life better for us in order to stimulate the economy and subsequently make themselves richer in the process. So for me it comes down to whether I trust Westminster and the Tories. In a word, no.

What's annoying though is that the baby boomers are doing it again. That demographic has gone through its entire life getting their way at the expense of all other demographics. And this time they're overwhelmingly voting to leave while younger voters are generally voting to stay. So they'll soon die off leaving a population outside of the EU who wanted to stay in.

[SofaKingHigh]

So, what is the deal with wanting to leave the EU? I get that it has imposed laws and regulations on you that you might not like, and I get that you don't like that the EU forces immigration on you. I mean hell, some of the governors of our states hate the federal government for some of its decisions on things that are similar. Considering that the EU has brought a lot of prosperity and security to Europe where before hand you were all waging war with each other, I just don't get the problem. It'd be like if Texas tried to secede today because of a few taxes, regulations, and civil rights mandates that Obama has made. So, my question is, why oppose a United States of Europe? Great Britain is a small and vulnerable island. Could it survive today's global economy without the EU?

Small and vulnerable Island?  5th biggest economy in the world, I hardly think so.

We joined the EU for free-trade, nothing more.  What we have now is an overly bloated, non-democratic organisation infiltrating nearly every area of our lives.  if the UK has a law that directly contradicts an EU mandate, guess which wins?

We're told that we will face economic disaster if we leave, horse shit.  The UK created more jobs in the last 5 years than the rest of the remaining 27 member states combined.  Does anybody seriously think that trade with the EU would just stop if we left?  We are their biggest customer, not China, not the US, the UK.  We love buying German cars, French cheese and wine.....they won't want that to stop, for their own sakes.

Junker and his cronies have made no secret of their plans of a federal Europe.  I want no part of a union that includes countries as Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and the likes.  This is in no way meant to disrespect any of those nations, but our economies and political situation have about as much in common with these countries as we do Afghanistan.

The UK currently has no trade deals with India, Canada, China.....we can't, because that has to come from the EU, leave and negotiate our own, anybody trying to scare us into thinking we couldn't are so far wrong it's funny.

[Minimalist]

John Oliver, after trashing the reasons for leaving, had this new European anthem composed so Britons could feel good about staying.

https://youtu.be/kRxy8dcTaQQ

[Ben Davis]

Small and vulnerable Island?  5th biggest economy in the world, I hardly think so.

...because of our membership in the EU.

We joined the EU for free-trade, nothing more.

Not quite. We joined because of the economic problems of the 70's: the recovery and success of other European nations after WW2 made it increasingly difficult for us to maintain growth. Combined with the threat from emerging economies and the increasing mobility of money and people, globally, it was clear that the UK would play second-fiddle in almost every trade deal if we didn't join. We joined because we wanted to remain a world-leading economy.

What we have now is an overly bloated, non-democratic organisation...

It is bloated and arguably corrupt but those are recent and temporary problems, dependent on the values and practices of the individuals who are in key positions. Once those people change, so will the corruption and we can get involved in that process by voting in candidates from our nation who want to tackle those issues, expose the corruption and ensure appropriate bureaucracy. To do that, the general public need to get more involved in EU politics not less. At the moment, we're mainly represented by UKIP and their self-serving, reductionist, right-wing policies that only serve to worsen the problems!

...infiltrating nearly every area of our lives. If the UK has a law that directly contradicts an EU mandate, guess which wins?

You say that as if it's a bad thing. EU legislation is directly responsible for past economic growth and the security of our economic future. Yes, there are questionable policies such as fishing & agriultural and we seem to have lucked out by not joining the Euro but we can't influence EU legislation from the outside. You have to be in it to win it!

We're told that we will face economic disaster if we leave, horse shit.

Not disaster, that's just propaganda however the downturn would be steep and sustained. The UK would be poor and we're talking 1920/30's poor here, for decades. Your pension? Forget it. Most/All that money will be 'lost' in order to maintain the profitability of organisations that will unashamedly feed off the removal of the worker's protections currently afforded by EU membership. You thought the Big Banking Buy-outs following the last recession were unethical and financially damaging? You ain't seen nothin' yet. We'd survive but we'd take steps backwards financially, with associated damage to our social and cultural infrastructures.

The UK created more jobs in the last 5 years than the rest of the remaining 27 member states combined.   Does anybody seriously think that trade with the EU would just stop if we left?  We are their biggest customer, not China, not the US, the UK.  We love buying German cars, French cheese and wine.....they won't want that to stop, for their own sakes.

And we would still be able to do so, at a much higher price. Moreover, we'd be exporting at a reduced rate. That means less money for us to invest in creating jobs, on public services, infrastructure investment, NHS, education etc.. Like I said, we'd survive, no doubt...

Junker and his cronies have made no secret of their plans of a federal Europe.  I want no part of a union that includes countries as Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and the likes.  This is in no way meant to disrespect any of those nations, but our economies and political situation have about as much in common with these countries as we do Afghanistan.

The whole point of bodies like the EU is to take advantage of our differences to create strength in unity. Like it or not, the people living in those nations have very similar interests to us: life, liberty, family etc.. It's the people who are important here and we're more similar than you think.

The UK currently has no trade deals with India, Canada, China.....we can't, because that has to come from the EU, leave and negotiate our own, anybody trying to scare us into thinking we couldn't are so far wrong it's funny.

Once again, that's the wole point. We don't need separate trade deals because we can bargain much more strongly as a single entity! Do you think China will give us the same terms as we currently have if we leave? What about the US, where the UK are the principle influencer that they have in European affairs (thanks to our 'special relationship')? Think they'll be happy with Brexit and give us the terms we want? What about the EU who we'll have pissed off?

It's not 'the end of European politics as we know it!!", "the cause of World War 3!!!", "the opportunity the China's been waiting for!!" or any of the other extreme 'Stay' rhetoric that's been touted however Brexit's not a pretty picture to imagine.

[Mr Greene]

Ultimately the problems with the EU boil down to the Franco-German dominance of the Directorates.
If the government had a strategy to deal with that I'd vote remain, no hesitation. As it is they've avoided the issue time and again and shown nothing but cowardice. As such my vote has to be to Leave.
 
The major problems revolve around the distortion of trade to favour trade within the EU when more efficient / lucrative trade deals can be made outside the EU.
Eg; Sugar:
There are 3 ways you can make sugar, Sugar Beet, Sugar Cane and Sugar Palm.
Sugar Palm is the most efficient, by a long way though it's usually only found in South East Asia.
Historically Britain has used Sugar Cane from its former colonies eg. Jamaica etc.
Sugar Beet is associated with Eastern Europe and is a joke if other sources are available.

In steps the EU and imposes tarrifs and import restrictions on non-EU produce whilst shoveling grants and benefits onto EU farmers.

Result; Jamaican sugar cane is no longer imported, Sugar beet is taking up a huge slice of valuable farmland in Norfolk for one of the largest sugar companies (Silver Spoon) and other sugar companies (eg. Tate & Lyle) have to import Sugar Cane from French colonies (eg. Guadeloupe, Reunion) as these are counted as being EU territory.

[Aractus]

So, what is the deal with wanting to leave the EU? I get that it has imposed laws and regulations on you that you might not like, and I get that you don't like that the EU forces immigration on you. I mean hell, some of the governors of our states hate the federal government for some of its decisions on things that are similar. Considering that the EU has brought a lot of prosperity and security to Europe where before hand you were all waging war with each other, I just don't get the problem. It'd be like if Texas tried to secede today because of a few taxes, regulations, and civil rights mandates that Obama has made. So, my question is, why oppose a United States of Europe? Great Britain is a small and vulnerable island. Could it survive today's global economy without the EU?

I haven't studied this in any great detail, so I can't give you a full answer but I can give you a perspective.

The reason why people thought the EU was a great idea is because it opened trade, it enabled free passage between EU countries, it helped to build a political environment where member states were less likely to be at each other's throats (e.g. France and Germany). The problem with the EU is that it's a quasi Nation State. To put it into ways you can relate to, imagine a North-American Union - NAU. The member States include: Canada, USA, Greenland, Mexico, Bahamas, Cuba, Antigua and Barbuda, Bahamas, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Haiti, Jamaica, Panama, and Nicaragua. There are a few other nation states that decide they don't to join the NAU. NAU laws and regulations can be voted on by all member states, but they are supreme to all Nation State laws. So for example, in the EU there are laws pertaining to migrants that the UK disagrees with. NAU also guarantees free travel throughout its member-states: you can enter or leave any country you want, find work, retire, etc. But there's one asshole country opposed to this claiming their Nation State is special and refusing to give those provisions whilst "vehemently securing their borders". In the EU that State is the UK.

Anyway, without going into excruciating detail, the whole problem with the EU the way that I see it is that it's a quasi Nation State which imposes regulations on its Nation State members - and sometimes those regulations piss off Member States. Let's give a hypothetical example of what might happen in the hypothetical NAU: the NAU passes a regulation limiting patent rights to a consistent standard. This pisses off the USA because they have the largest number of pharmaceutical companies, and they want them to exploit more profit through tougher IP laws that are in their interest, but not NAU interests.

Ultimately, good or bad, the EU is anti-democratic. Some people say this is fine because the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland/(insert country here) was never a proper democracy anyway, and functions more like a democracy under the EU anyway. That is a valid argument in many ways, I'm not saying that it isn't, but doesn't solve the democratic process within Member States, it only makes it worse because policy & law making takes place out of their hands. Yes they still get to vote and have a say, but for many regulations it won't matter because a bloc of other EU States already decided to support a certain idea.

[Pat Mustard]

here this should sum up why it's good for Britain to leave the EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW0LEtW_6sI

Dyre I thought you were somewhat lefty. Well, then why are you taking the word of the Tory far right, who'd go the opposite way on everything financial & economic than you would?

[Ben Davis]

Dyre I thought you were somewhat lefty. Well, then why are you taking the word of the Tory far right, who'd go the opposite way on everything financial & economic than you would?

Originally, the left-wing of UK politics were opposed to the EU as it was effectively a mechanism by which companies could move money and resources in order to reduce their tax burdens and operating costs thus anti-socialist. They were right for a while but then the EU started realising that they actually need tax revenues in order to operate so they drew up legislation to limit that freedom and protect workers. Some hardcore leftists still hold the outdated view, based on the free-trade model but they're ignoring the reins placed around the necks of corporations. In my view, the reins aren't big enough but the only way to change that is from within.