Debunking the "God is Beyond Time" xtian response

[Simon Moon]

Greetings, AF-ers!

So.  I played the Easter Vigil Mass at a Catholic Church on Saturday evening.  I was sitting beside a friend who is in the medical profession - very intelligent, very scientifically-oriented. Her understanding of evolutionary biology is much stronger than mine.  At the Vigil, they read the "Creation story", the "Exodus", and a whole bunch of other evil bullshit. So, at one point, I just said - "So, the creation story is a complete myth, right?" -- expecting her to agree.  She didn't.  Her response is "No, not exactly.  It's just not couched in scientific terms, because it was written down by people who didn't have that knowledge.  But I believe that it is accurate at it's core, because GOD exists OUTSIDE OF TIME." Well.  It wasn't a good time for a debate.  This debate may never come up, really.  Her Father is not well - she's stressed.

But I know that I have read good responses to that "beyond time" fallacy.  I just can't find them at the moment.  I did a search for a thread here, (I'm pretty sure SOMEBODY brought it up!) -- haven't found that yet either. It boggles the mind, because as far as we can tell, nothing in this universe is "beyond time".  And she certainly has no evidence for her assertion.  

But if anyone has a really good explanation for why this is a fallacy, an illogical dodge - - or can point me to a good source - - I need to study!  Thanks team!

-- Fuzz

The problem I have with it is, that it uses a definition of he word "exists" (as in, "god exists outside of time") that is meaningless.

Existence is necessarily temporal. How would something exist in no time? That seems identical to saying it does not exist.

Now, I've heard some theists say that god exists outside our time, but he exists in a realm of meta-time. So, that begs the question, who create the realm of meta-time that god exists in?

[RoadRunner79]

Greetings, AF-ers!

So.  I played the Easter Vigil Mass at a Catholic Church on Saturday evening.  I was sitting beside a friend who is in the medical profession - very intelligent, very scientifically-oriented. Her understanding of evolutionary biology is much stronger than mine.  At the Vigil, they read the "Creation story", the "Exodus", and a whole bunch of other evil bullshit. So, at one point, I just said - "So, the creation story is a complete myth, right?" -- expecting her to agree.  She didn't.  Her response is "No, not exactly.  It's just not couched in scientific terms, because it was written down by people who didn't have that knowledge.  But I believe that it is accurate at it's core, because GOD exists OUTSIDE OF TIME." Well.  It wasn't a good time for a debate.  This debate may never come up, really.  Her Father is not well - she's stressed.

But I know that I have read good responses to that "beyond time" fallacy.  I just can't find them at the moment.  I did a search for a thread here, (I'm pretty sure SOMEBODY brought it up!) -- haven't found that yet either. It boggles the mind, because as far as we can tell, nothing in this universe is "beyond time".  And she certainly has no evidence for her assertion.  

But if anyone has a really good explanation for why this is a fallacy, an illogical dodge - - or can point me to a good source - - I need to study!  Thanks team!

-- Fuzz

The problem I have with it is, that it uses a definition of he word "exists" (as in, "god exists outside of time") that is meaningless.

Existence is necessarily temporal. How would something exist in no time? That seems identical to saying it does not exist.

Now, I've heard some theists say that god exists outside our time, but he exists in a realm of meta-time. So, that begs the question, who create the realm of meta-time that god exists in?

I have two questions here.  Does time exist?  If so, does time exist within itself?

[Simon Moon]

The problem I have with it is, that it uses a definition of he word "exists" (as in, "god exists outside of time") that is meaningless.

Existence is necessarily temporal. How would something exist in no time? That seems identical to saying it does not exist.

Now, I've heard some theists say that god exists outside our time, but he exists in a realm of meta-time. So, that begs the question, who create the realm of meta-time that god exists in?

I have two questions here.  Does time exist?  If so, does time exist within itself?

There is something that we perceive as time, that exists.

Time exists as an attribute of our universe.

[RoadRunner79]

I have two questions here.  Does time exist?  If so, does time exist within itself?

There is something that we perceive as time, that exists.

Time exists as an attribute of our universe.

The reason I ask, is because of the statement / question "Existence is necessarily temporal. How would something exist in no time?"

If something must exist within time, then I think it is more problematic, to say that time does not exist itself.
Similarly if time is an attribute of the universe, then at least logically, the universe had to exist prior to time.

[Cecelia]

Well of course it was written down by people who didn't have that knowledge. It's not like they had some secret source that is all knowing, and knew exactly how it went down.