The need to believe?

[Aliza]

Nothing about my own sense of spirituality asks me to abandon facts, evidence, or reason.

If it's atheism that makes a person dumb, you need to move over so I can sit there too.

You can use the word "spirituality" all you wish, nobody should stop you.

But to me that is no different than when right and left wingers argue over the New Testament vs the Old. Or when Sunnis argue with Shiites, or when Zionists argue with Jews, or when Tibet Buddhists argue with Chinese Buddhists or Japanese Shinto Buddhists.

Yea, everyone has their own interpretation. 

I know you are not going to go on a killing spree like the Christians of the Crusades or Isis, but waterdown woo is still woo.

It is definitely anyone's choice in a free society to "interpret" things the way the like. But knowing our planet was around long before, and that our planet and sun will die 5 billion years from now, what is far more important to me than our divisions is that more understand that our ride is finite. 

But Zionists are Jews. Maybe you meant like the secular Jews argue with the observant Jews, or the Zionists argue with the Non-Zionists. 

.... yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just semantics. I know.

[Simon Moon]

Most everyone here knows my ''story,'' but the nutshell version is that I grew up in a Christian home, and thought I believed most of what I was taught. As an adult, I've questioned like anyone does, but about five years ago, I came to the conclusion that Christianity was built on man made lies, and that the Bible really is a book designed by men to control other men. Religion is a powerful tool to control others.

ALL religions are man made, not just Christianity.

I don't believe that the evidence points to the Bible being designed to control people. It happens to be a great tool for that purpose, but it was not by design.

Then, my grandmother died a little over two years ago, and when she became ill, I was an atheist at that time, and it was then that I started to feel emotionally lost as an non-believer. Logically, atheism was still ''it'' for me, but emotionally, dealing with the loss of my grandmother was just hard. Despite having quite a few atheist friends, I couldn't find any solace in regards to processing my grandmother's death. So, I started looking into other beliefs system like Buddhism and even Islam. Without going into a lot of details, I have always felt this need to believe. Like if I don't believe, something bad will happen. Thanks to my indoctrinated childhood, I've always felt like something outside of myself should solve my problems, or come to my rescue. I'm not ''good enough'' on my own. In organized religion, the teachings revolve around how you're simply not good enough to do anything on your own, and you need this Great Comforter to help you. And when you believe it, it IS comforting. But, why do I need this belief? Logically, there is no proof that a deity exists, but why must I tell myself that one does? I felt almost two years ago, like I had an actual spiritual experience, and now I wonder...was I creating that experience because I've missed the emotional comfort that faith brought to me? And looking back, there likely was a logical explanation for what happened ut I applied a supernatural answer to it.

I do not mean to be condescending or insulting, but I could never imagine having thought processes like you describe above.

To me, one of the most important things in my life, is to try to have as many true beliefs as possible, and as few false beliefs as possible. I want my internal representation of the world to map as closely as possible to the real world.

The single best way to accomplish the above, is to base my beliefs on demonstrable evidence and sound and valid logic. And to disbelieve claims that lack these criteria.

My mind and heart never really ''agreed'' when it came to my atheist position five years ago, and when I come to this site, or hang out with my friends who are atheists, there is comfort in logic. Simple logic. But, we're not only logical people, the sum total of our lives isn't built around our intellects. We have emotions, and while they shouldn't govern us, they are important. So, where I'm at right now is that I want to believe that God exists. Or a god. I'm not following any religion, don't go to church, etc. Yet, I feel a pull towards spirituality. I've been reading about ''spiritual atheism'' and wonder if it is an actual thing. Can an atheist, also be spiritual? Can someone logically come to a conclusion that a god doesn't exist, yet wishes to believe that one does? Have any of you felt this way, do you ever wish you believed, or have had a desire to believe, yet logically, you know that the concept is absurd? Is there no meaningful way to reconcile the two?

You do not care whether your beliefs are true, only that they make you feel good. That way of thinking is completely foreign to me.

So, where I'm at right now is that I want to believe that God exists. Or a god.

Beliefs are not a choice. They are a result of being convinced.

There is no psychological path to actually believing a proposition or a premise, unless you are convinced of it being true. The question is, are you convinced that a god exists, or not? Not what you want to be true, what you are convinced is true.

One of my friends recently said to me (he is an atheist, always has been) that he thinks it's interesting that I feel that everyone is on a ''faith journey,'' for he has never felt that way. He said that there is no journey of faith for him, he accepts his lack of belief, and doesn't try to ''fix it.'' He said that he thinks I'm trying to ''fix'' something inside of me, as if there is something wrong with not believing in a god. And that struck me so hard, he is right, I guess. When I was an atheist, intellectually and logically, I felt fine. I had no issues with my concluding that a god likely doesn't exist, but emotionally, I've always felt empty not believing. Just being honest. Because I was taught to put God in the everyday, human void that we all probably experience from time to time. ''God of the gaps,'' plugging God into the painful gaps of my life. So, that's where I'm at right now, and wonder if I'm alone in these thoughts. 

I grew up a theist, but I have no interest of being in a "faith journey". I was more than happy to give up faith based beliefs.

I do not find faith (the way the word is defined by theists) to be a virtue. I am unable to determine the difference between faith and gullibility.  

Faith is not a reliable path to truth. There is no claim, no matter how outrageous, that can not be believed on faith.

Thanks for listening, and if you have any thoughts, I'd be happy to hear them.

Thank you for sharing!

[*Deidre*]

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, Simon. I don't know ''how to be'' like you describe yourself as being. I just don't. I want to, and there is some envy in me for atheists who never question, never waiver, never doubt their position. It seems like you never looked back at the faith you left behind. That's not everyone, we're all different.

You're wrong in that I don't not care if my beliefs are true, and only that they make me feel good...rather, I view my beliefs as if there is comfort and peace from them, then maybe there is truth behind what is bringing that peace. Of course, this is why I'm at a cross roads because I've discovered that comfort doesn't equate to truth. And faith hasn't been bringing comfort, to be honest. Not like it once did before I left it and identified as an atheist, anyway. But, truth...while maybe not entirely comforting or comfortable, will most likely bring a sustainable peace. I don't want to ''use'' faith as an escape from discomfort or my own fears of relying on myself, and maybe I have been doing that for a while. I'm sorting this out, so we'll see.

---

Hey Ben, and thanks for your thoughts. You pose a good question - how important is the truth? I think that to the best of anyone's knowledge, it's safe to say no one really knows with certainty, one way or the other, if a deity exists.

No one knows any truth with 100% certainty. Everything is a preponderance of evidence and while with respect to specific deities the probabilities are 99.99% of those specific gods not existing (being charitable here), the question is not "do I know for sure" but "is there any valid reason to afford belief to this?"

I have to stop living for my emotions, though. We're not slaves to our emotions, and that's likely why so many religions can manipulate people, it preys on our vulnerabilities and emotions.

I can tell that you're a person that "leads with" your emotions, who feels things deeply, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that per se. It does however mean that you have extra work to do, to push back against confirmation bias, agency inference, and just generally giving subjective feelings too much evidential weight. I'm probably the rough opposite of you, I lead with my intellect and am often not that in touch with my emotions. That's got its own downsides too. I don't think you have anything to apologize for or wish for here, but you simply have to develop discipline around your feelings so they don't intrude ON your intellect and maybe override it under stress. And somehow do that while still being authentic.

This is very similar to someone who is a gourmand, who truly loves and lives for food; that's fine, so long as it doesn't lead to food addiction or obesity, etc. Or someone who lives for runner's high, which is fine so long as you understand the stress that puts on your physically and you don't end up with your toenails falling off, etc. It's just a different way of being, with its own strengths and vulnerabilities.

As an atheist, I felt honest with myself, yet emotionally a bit empty. In faith, I feel intellectually dishonest (to be honest), and emotionally a bit better. Less empty, but not necessarily ''full.'' I just don't want to live on a fence, that's all.

Your statement here suddenly made something "click" for me. I've never understood the sort of agnostic who can't seem to decide if god exists or not (they are fairly rare, actually, although many believers seem to think that's the ONLY manifestation of agnosticism). Such agnostics seem tormented by their own inability to decide. And maybe that's because something like what you're talking about is going on: there is discomfort for them, emotionally or in some other way, on both sides of that belief position. I used to think it was because they (wrongly in my view) calculate the "odds of gods" at something close to 50%, and I suppose that COULD be one source of such indecision. But I'll bet it's really just that they're equally uncomfortable with both concepts, maybe even frequently for the reason you cite.

In your case, the question is, how do you take care of yourself emotionally if you take the atheist belief position? As I mentioned before, in my case, I'm actually becoming MORE comfortable emotionally because my misfortunes as a believer just made me confused, angry and resentful due to unmet expectations that my faith had set. You on the other hand trade one discomfort for another.

Many atheists talk about a sense of awe regarding science, the universe, natural beauty, so emotional stimulation is not lacking on that side of the fence. You simply may have neglected it, thinking it wasn't important or desirable. If you haven't done so, watch videos of Carl Sagan or Neil Degrasse Tyson sometime -- those guys are STOKED about the vastness and beauty of the cosmos, with no help from religious ideology at all. Maybe you simply need to put more of an emphasis on things that feed your emotional needs without committing intellectual suicide in the process. Something to consider anyway.

Also since the death of a family member was your "trigger" here, consider ways to fully confront the fact of mortality -- yours, and others. A big help to me was the writings of Ernst Becker, particularly Denial of Death, which, if you ignore his constant and distracting digressions about his hero Freud, goes a long way to provoke you to think differently about mortality (it's all the more powerful because it was written by a dying man -- during his final illness).

As framed by religion, mortality is a horrible, unthinkable thing to be avoided with afterlives and other magical compensators. When understood properly, though, it looses virtually all of that "fear factor". I do not have a malfunction with my mortality and do not fear it; my only fear is concerning the process of dying, not death itself. And that applies to my family members ... I would be far more upset for example if my son's death had been protracted and excruciating. It was sudden and quick and merciful, and that helped a great deal. The fact that he is gone is not a source of endless despair, even though it's something I'll always have to live with and I'll always miss him. I recognize that death -- even untimely death -- is simply a part of life. That we are creatures of time, and tellers of stories, who need beginnings, middles, and yes -- ends.

Becker talks about "immortality projects" that people engage in to ease their fear of death and to convince themselves on some level that they're exempt from it. Religion is one of those immortality projects. Check Becker out, I think it might be helpful to you. The best way to get rid of fear is to de-mystify what you fear. Running from it helps, but only so long as you keep running, and that's exhausting before long.

mordant? I don't know you, but your posts really have left me with a lot of positive things to mull over, thank you! I bolded the above for emphasis, and yes, that's exactly what concerns me. I sound like this fragile little vase, and I'm not, at some point, we all cope with tragedies, etc...and even ''with'' faith, I've felt terribly sorrowful before, and even distraught. Faith isn't a shield but it has brought me some comfort that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and I can't provide the light myself. That is what indoctrination teaches you, that you can't make it on your own, that you're ill equipped to take on the tough parts of life, so you need a god or a savior or something outside of yourself to do it. This is not an easy mindset to break, but logically, I know that it is not based on facts. And facts are important to me, because the truth will set one free. Sorry, not sorry, I had to say it. lol

Faith teaches that there is no comfort in the secular world, and that such comfort ultimately exists in a higher power. So you keep thirsting for this source to provide you what you lack, and so when I was an atheist, logically I was spot on, but when my grandmother died...I was fish out of water. Who or what do I turn to? People can't help me, my parents can't help me, my bf at that time can't help me, or maybe I just didn't think they could help me. That's probably more the case. 

So let's say I go down the atheist path again, I will have to create a new normal of how to deal with stress and strife. One of my atheist friends said to me recently...''you've always been your strength, you just have chosen to attribute it to something else.'' While logically that makes sense, I just need to believe it, you know? I need to have faith in myself. That's what's been lacking, if I'm honest.

---

I wonder why in notifications, it states that I'm replying to myself, is that because one of my quotes is part of the person I want to quote?

[KevinM1]

*decloak*

I've never had a need to believe in any god.  Even as a child, I never really understood what all the fuss was about regarding this god character.  None of the stories passed the bullshit test, and I found church to be beyond creepy.

Even as an adult I don't get faith.  It utterly baffles me that people take it so personally, to the point of killing others.  From my vantage point, it just looks like unthinking tribalism revolving around base emotional fulfillment.  No, thank you.

*recloaking*

[*Deidre*]

*decloak*

I've never had a need to believe in any god.  Even as a child, I never really understood what all the fuss was about regarding this god character.  None of the stories passed the bullshit test, and I found church to be beyond creepy.

Even as an adult I don't get faith.  It utterly baffles me that people take it so personally, to the point of killing others.  From my vantage point, it just looks like unthinking tribalism revolving around base emotional fulfillment.  No, thank you.

*recloaking*

I wonder though why some people hesitate to leave it(faith) (or never leave it), whether it's due to comfort or whatever, and others like you make a snap decision and just don't ever buy into it. I'm not a stupid person, but maybe I've just allowed fear and emotions to do more of my thinking, at times. Hence, why I'm here (again)

[mordant]

I don't believe that the evidence points to the Bible being designed to control people. It happens to be a great tool for that purpose, but it was not by design.

Well ... it wasn't by design in the sense that hooded men met in secret to plot out how it was written.

However, as the core of a set of interlocking memes that eventually become Christianity, I believe that it organically evolved to be "a great tool for that purpose". It wasn't a plot ... it was simply the process of elimination of what works and what doesn't to frame people's reality in a way that compels them to participate, proselytize, defend against competing ideas, and, in so doing, keep people "in line" for that purpose.

All holy books share certain things in common, mainly that they are suitably vague templates that are adaptable to any age's requirements. That's all that there is to being "timeless". As such, it isn't simply that the book is effective at controlling people, but also that it's manipulatable for that purpose.

[The Grand Nudger]

What, in your estimation, might be true about whatever it is you believe in, Deidre?  What suggests to you that it is?

As to the other bit, there's plenty of "comfort" in the secular world. Here you are, after all. That you don't feel it invariably has more to do with your childhood indoctrination than anything else. Have you spoken to a grief counselor? I hate to say that with time "this too will pass", but...that is how it goes for us, most of the time. The gods don't make it go away, it just does. Your narrative is pretty much textbook;

-Person with religious background suffers loss, returns to seeking solace in the trappings of their faith.

It's difficult to imagine that, if you required it, professional help would be insufficient. Even if you -did- have the help of a god...it would still be prudent to help yourself.

[mordant]

mordant? I don't know you, but your posts really have left me with a lot of positive things to mull over, thank you!

You are welcome. It feels good to know that.

I sound like this fragile little vase, and I'm not, at some point, we all cope with tragedies, etc...and even ''with'' faith, I've felt terribly sorrowful before, and even distraught. Faith isn't a shield but it has brought me some comfort that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and I can't provide the light myself. That is what indoctrination teaches you, that you can't make it on your own, that you're ill equipped to take on the tough parts of life, so you need a god or a savior or something outside of yourself to do it. This is not an easy mindset to break, but logically, I know that it is not based on facts. And facts are important to me, because the truth will set one free.

Exactly ... you are stronger than you likely know. But I am not sure most of us really know ourselves nearly so well in, say, our 20s as in our 40s or 50s. This isn't all about religion, some of it is just normal growth as a human. At your age I was a full-on evangelical with no thought of leaving the faith. So you are further along than I was. I respect that.

Faith teaches that there is no comfort in the secular world, and that such comfort ultimately exists in a higher power. So you keep thirsting for this source to provide you what you lack, and so when I was an atheist, logically I was spot on, but when my grandmother died...I was fish out of water. Who or what do I turn to? People can't help me, my parents can't help me, my bf at that time can't help me, or maybe I just didn't think they could help me. That's probably more the case.

Paradoxically, both things are true. Others can be present for and with us and remind us that we aren't alone on our path. On the other hand there's a sense in which people can't help us with some things. Even Christians have a saying, "god has no grandchildren", meaning you can't borrow anyone else's faith; your relationship with god is yours alone. Christian or not ... when you lose a loved one, no one can sort that out for you. The most they can do is share any similar experiences that they've gone through, and assure you (truthfully) that things will eventually feel better. All I can say is that thanatology (the study of grief and loss) has been (for example) way more helpful to me than Christian dogma or platitudes in this regard. The problem of course when your grandma died, was that you needed something to reach out for quickly, and weren't established with any tools outside of those offered by your faith. That's why I suggested Becker as an example of someone who you might want to pursue to bolster yourself against the inevitable future events like this that you'll face in your life.

So let's say I go down the atheist path again, I will have to create a new normal of how to deal with stress and strife. One of my atheist friends said to me recently...''you've always been your strength, you just have chosen to attribute it to something else.'' While logically that makes sense, I just need to believe it, you know? I need to have faith in myself. That's what's been lacking, if I'm honest.

You'll gain more faith in yourself just by virtue of growing as a person year over year. Experience matters. I'm just suggesting it will help to take up a study of mortality / death / how to make meaning for yourself from non-religious sources. There's a lot to be had. Religion (much less conservative religion) doesn't have a corner on that market.

[*Deidre*]

What, in your estimation, might be true about whatever it is you believe in, Deidre?  What suggests to you that it is?

As to the other bit, there's plenty of "comfort" in the secular world.  Here you are, after all. That you don't feel it invariably has more to do with your childhood indoctrination than anything else.   Have you spoken to a grief counselor?  I hate to say that with time "this too will pass", but...that is how it goes for us, most of the time.  The gods don't make it go away, it just does.  Your narrative is pretty much textbook;

-Person with religious background suffers loss, returns to seeking solace in the trappings of their faith.

It's difficult to imagine that, if you required it, professional help would be insufficient.  Even if you -did- have the help of a god...it would still be prudent to help yourself.

Basically, what have I believed or have been taught to believe? I'd say the abbreviated version would be ''God is love,'' and with that comes a sense of security. Maybe false security that I've manufactured, but security as I've come to know it. I think what ''suggests'' it is I have spent most of my life convincing myself of that idea. An idea that came from a devout family, and such. An idea that I started questioning fives years ago, when I dissected the Bible, and came away feeling that it's a book basically of rules and such to govern the masses, and the idea of a god orchestrating it all, was a man made fallacy. So, logically, I tell myself that what I believe has no basis in facts or evidence, but that faith doesn't require it. (another common mantra in religious circles) There are a lot of excuses made for faith - and I think why I left faith and eventually identified with atheism, is that I couldn't believe any longer in an all powerful god that needed me to defend him. So much of religion is built around your peers competing with you as to who knows god the best. Interestingly, if you visit a Christian forum, the fighting is crazy intense, more so than when atheists and Christians debate. Now that I've healed from my grandmother's death, I'm back to this place of questions, and why am I still carrying around a belief system that I don't really believe in, on a logical level. I think when my grandmother died, I was so overwhelmed by grief, that I did what came natural, and that was to seek something outside of myself to fix it. But, only time can really fix it, and honestly, it's only the unhealthy attachments to situations and people that bring us so much grief in the first place. I'm in a better place now to process this, and I don't want to need this, anymore. 

I think that's it actually - I feel like I could easily identify as an atheist again, but atheism isn't only an intellectual position. Just talking about it openly with you all has been immensely helpful - reading my words back causes me to remove the cognitive dissonance that exists when sorting out stuff like this. I think probably one of the most helpful things I've read from you guys is that you sometimes feel conflicted, and that okay, you deal with it - and you struggle in life and deal with it. There is no escape route, we just have to deal.

[The Grand Nudger]

Basically, what have I believed or have been taught to believe?

I doubt I'd be interested in what you were taught to believe.  We both know that shit's bunk.

I'd say the abbreviated version would be ''God is love,'' and with that comes a sense of security.

If god is love, then what is love?  I've always felt that love....was love?

Maybe false security that I've manufactured, but security as I've come to know it. I think what ''suggests'' it is I have spent most of my life convincing myself of that idea. An idea that came from a devout family, and such. An idea that I started questioning fives years ago, when I dissected the Bible, and came away feeling that it's a book basically of rules and such to govern the masses, and the idea of a god orchestrating it all, was a man made fallacy.

Well, I wouldn't comment too much on most of that..but I would say that there doesn't seem to be much love in the bible.  More a tragedy than a romance, eh?

So, logically, I tell myself that what I believe has no basis in facts or evidence, but that faith doesn't require it. (another common mantra in religious circles) There are a lot of excuses made for faith - and I think why I left faith and eventually identified with atheism, is that I couldn't believe any longer in an all powerful god that needed me to defend him. So much of religion is built around your peers competing with you as to who knows god the best. Interestingly, if you visit a Christian forum, the fighting is crazy intense, more so than when atheists and Christians debate. Now that I've healed from my grandmother's death, I'm back to this place of questions, and why am I still carrying around a belief system that I don't really believe in, on a logical level. I think when my grandmother died, I was so overwhelmed by grief, that I did what came natural, and that was to seek something outside of myself to fix it. But, only time can really fix it, and honestly, it's only the unhealthy attachments to situations and people that bring us so much grief in the first place. I'm in a better place now to process this, and I don't want to need this, anymore. 

So...you've been receiving "love" then..from an external source?  Most of us need love from an external source (in a palpable sense, not at all like the euphimism of needing to believe). Thankfully, there's plenty to go around...but, what does that have to do with gods, again?

I think that's it actually - I feel like I could easily identify as an atheist again, but atheism isn't only an intellectual position. Just talking about it openly with you all has been immensely helpful - reading my words back causes me to remove the cognitive dissonance that exists when sorting out stuff like this. I think probably one of the most helpful things I've read from you guys is that you sometimes feel conflicted, and that okay, you deal with it - and you struggle in life and deal with it. There is no escape route, we just have to deal.

Sure, we all feel conflicted..I don't feel conflicted about gods, I feel conflicted about wrenches being intentional beings trying to fuck with me.  No more or less silly than a god, or that "god is love" - at the end of the day. I feel conflicted about the man I am and the man I want to be. I feel conflicted about decisions I've made, "from the heart" as it were..rather than the head. I feel conflicted about what I wish to be true, as opposed to what is.

I think that it would require a far more singular mind than the human one to live without internal conflict.