Psalm 137:9

[Redbeard The Pink]

Ummm...that's an admonition against kidnapping, not forcing people into servitude. Hence:

Look dummy, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt because you're clearly ignorant of scripture, now you're just crossed all the way in to stupid territory.

Taking someone against their will IS kidnapping, what you do with the person afterwards DOESN'T NEGATE THAT FACT.

The Bible is clear, the penalty for kidnapping is death.

That being said, what did I tell you guys about bible translations? Stick to the KJV because there is a lot of nuance to how it uses words as compared to later translations.

Leviticus 25:44-46King James Version (KJV)

44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

"Heathen" and "nation" do not mean the same thing, but more importantly, "possession" and "property" are not the same (as your version conflates the two), Just because something is in ones possession doesn't mean it's their property. If I let you borrow a tool, that tool comes into your possession but is NOT your property... got it?

What the bible is describing IS NOT CHATTEL SLAVERY, it is indentured servitude which was entered into on a completely voluntary basis, it was quite common for one to sell themselves into servitude.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_slavery

Voluntary slavery (or self-sale) is the condition of slavery entered into at a point of voluntary consent. In ancient times, this was a common way for impoverished people to provide subsistence for themselves or their family and provision was made for this in law. For example, the code of Hammurabi stated that "besides being able to borrow on personal security, an individual might sell himself or a family member into slavery". In medieval Russia, self-sale was the main source of slaves.

In ancient times, one of the most direct ways to become a Roman or Greek citizen was by means of a self-sale contract. The laws surrounding Roman and Greek manumission made it quite possible for such erstwhile slaves to then become citizens or near-citizens themselves.

As long as slaves were bought and paid for via "legitimate" means, they were basically oxen. They had practically no rights unless they were Jewish, and even Jewish slaves could be kept forever if they didn't want to leave their families behind. The bible is pro-slavery. Your gymnastics are unimpressive.

Again, another bald faced lie...

How do you explain this then?

Leviticus 25
10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

sounds like a "right" to me...

Oh really? What's this then?


So, to be clear, voluntary manslaughter of one's slaves is not to be avenged because those slaves are literal property. What was that about knowledge of customs?

I already addressed this, are you seriously going to double down? If he survives a day you two and DOESN'T DIE he is not to be avenged... if he dies, it is the right of the family to take revenge, no if's, ands, or butts.

In the first example if you injured someone who wasn't a servant, you were responsible for his care and paid for his loss of time.

If you permanently injured your servant, he was allowed to go free, you didn't give him money BECAUSE YOU ALREADY PAID HIM FOR HIS TIME WHEN HE SOLD HIMSELF TO YOU.

Exodus 21
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Either way, you lost money.

For someone who keeps calling me a liar, your argumentation is pretty dishonest.

First off, your semantic games with the KJV are not impressive. To Old Testament Jews, heathens and foreigners are inherently the same thing. It might say "servant" and "possession" rather than "slave" and "property," but the text in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy is clearly talking about buying, keeping, and working people as if they are pieces of property. Slaves were only allowed to go free in particular circumstances, and aside from those provisions slavers were free to detain and even beat their slaves, provided they didn't lose eyes or teeth or die right away.

And yes, if a slave died a day or two after a beating, he was not to be avenged. The previous passage about assault and manslaughter has nothing to do with slavery. Read the book or get honest about it.

The bottom line here is that in no place and at no time does the bible say "Do not buy or sell human beings; you may not own other humans as property."

What it DOES say is that (within certain guidelines) you may buy, sell, bequeath, and beat other human beings, and the circumstances under which they can gain freedom are specific and remote.

That. Is. Chattel. Slavery.

Your bible authorizes and regulates it in the old testament, then doubles down in the new testament by telling slaves to obey cruel and kind masters alike. That's why, when pressed about biblical slavery, apologists like you have to go scurrying off to passages about kidnapping and loving your neighbor. The passages that actually address slavery don't say what you want them to, so you have to bend others into shape to make your point.

[Huggy Bear]

For someone who keeps calling me a liar, your argumentation is pretty dishonest.

Look, if you don't want to be called a liar, don't lie...

I've thoroughly explained why your position was wrong, yet you insist that it isn't. You know absolutely jack about scripture yet you presume to try and explain to me what the scriptures mean.

I don't know of any other situation where a rank amateur (even that title is giving you more credit than you deserve) has the nerve to try and explain something to someone with 30+ years experience in the subject matter.

I've debated this very subject with a person who ironically gets voted best debater every year, and he got made to look absolutely foolish, you're not going to do any better...

in fact, every time I see a slavery thread, I stroll in like:

First off, your semantic games with the KJV are not impressive. To Old Testament Jews, heathens and foreigners are inherently the same thing.

This is patently false.
Heathen and foreigner, are in no way the same thing.

• heath·en - 1. a person who does not belong to a widely held religion (especially one who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim) as regarded by those who do.
  
  
• for·eign·er - a person born in or coming from a country other than one's own.
  

That being said the Moabites believed in the same God the Israelites did and they also had their own prophet; Balaam (who is famously known for the talking donkey), They were a different nation but not heathens.

It might say "servant" and "possession" rather than "slave" and "property," but the text in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy is clearly talking about buying, keeping, and working people as if they are pieces of property. Slaves were only allowed to go free in particular circumstances, and aside from those provisions slavers were free to detain and even beat their slaves, provided they didn't lose eyes or teeth or die right away.

And yes, if a slave died a day or two after a beating, he was not to be avenged. The previous passage about assault and manslaughter has nothing to do with slavery. Read the book or get honest about it.

The bottom line here is that in no place and at no time does the bible say "Do not buy or sell human beings; you may not own other humans as property."

What it DOES say is that (within certain guidelines) you may buy, sell, bequeath, and beat other human beings, and the circumstances under which they can gain freedom are specific and remote.

That. Is. Chattel. Slavery.

Your bible authorizes and regulates it in the old testament, then doubles down in the new testament by telling slaves to obey cruel and kind masters alike. That's why, when pressed about biblical slavery, apologists like you have to go scurrying off to passages about kidnapping and loving your neighbor. The passages that actually address slavery don't say what you want them to, so you have to bend others into shape to make your point.

Nonsense, indentured servitude IS NOT chattel slavery, chattel slavery is what the trans Atlantic slave trade was based on.

Abraham for example had many servants, and since at the time he had no sons, his head servant was his HEIR.

Does that sound like chattel slavery to you?

When Abraham nephew was kidnapped by a war party, Abraham armed his servants to go rescue him.
Does that sound like chattel slavery to you?

Do you think any slave owner in America would of armed his slaves?

You'd be a fool to arm people that you mistreated, you see what happened in Haiti, so stop trying to equate the two.

What it DOES say is that (within certain guidelines) you may buy, sell, bequeath, and beat other human beings, and the circumstances under which they can gain freedom are specific and remote

Oh now I see you changed your tune. I thought you said they were property forever? that they were basically oxen and had no rights?

[Minimalist]

The most amusing part of this whole thing is that for the most part jews did not have to worry about owning slaves but rather about being slaves.  That was a consequence of continually getting their asses kicked by stronger nations!

[Cyberman]

in fact, every time I see a slavery thread, I stroll in like:

Like you've just shit yourself?

[Huggy Bear]

in fact, every time I see a slavery thread, I stroll in like:

Like you've just shit yourself?

Nah, like I'm about to wreck some arguments...

[downbeatplumb]

Like you've just shit yourself?

Nah, like I'm about to wreck some arguments...

I think its spelt reek, your about to reek at some arguments.

[Cyberman]

Like you've just shit yourself?

Nah, like I'm about to wreck some arguments...

Oh. Well in that case, it's more like this:

[Drich]

I meant "owning other people as property while detaining/working them against their will." We're not discussing modern "wage slavery", and we're not discussing indentured servitude. We're talking about owning other humans. I don't see how I could make this any more clear.

IDK smoothie I think 45 million modern slaves is alot of people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2FSPdgEguk

Your half way there sport.. not only is it built it is currently maintained on the backs of modern day slaves. Meaning if you were to pul the slaves out of the system a great number of people could not afford to feed themselves. the 'system' would collapse back into calling a slave a slave. so to speak.

Owning other human beings as property is illegal according to international law. Do we still exploit workers in various ways around the world? Sure. Are illegal slave trades of various kinds still going on today, even in America? Of course.

watch the video there are so many different ways of owning people without a chattle title of ownership

What we don't have, by and large, is the large-scale, government-sanctioned owning and trafficking of other human beings as pieces of property to be bought, sold, and handed down to one's children. If you're saying that our extant problems with exploitation of people and labor are virtually the same as the problems we used to have with legal, systemic, chattel slavery, then I disagree, and I think you're being disingenuous.

Or you like most douche bags put their heads in the sand rather than ask where did the cotton come from that my cloths are made of, where did this super soft leather come from the my couch is made of where did the meat come from that I am eating where did this organic crap I did not grow come from...
Nothing has changed except the vocabulary we use to describe the low to no pay workers who are responsible for our raw materials.

The word and work of slaver in neither a good or bad thing.

Wow. Tell that to some slaves. I fucking dare you.

I am literally one generation from slavery. Ive seen and hear the bad and I have first hand work alongside my grandfather in another man's field to pay back the money that brought his family to the US.

When he was a slave to the Japs it was brutal, lost family members, when He sold himself to work the man who paid for our family to come over He could not have been more proud.

Slavery was not the issue, as at it core is a form of barter of trading self/service for something. Even the chattel slaves in America received a small stipend/payment of somekind.

It all depends on who is using slavery, for what purpose and how they treat the people enslaved to them.

According to the Bible, you can beat your slaves as long as they don't die for at least a day or two. What kind of treatment would you consider that to be if it were happening to you?


Excuse me. No. We're all slaves if we go by YOUR definition, and I wish you would stop falsely equivocating it with mine. I'm talking about the kind of slavery where humans can own other human beings as property, meaning the people owned have no right to consent or bodily autonomy. You are talking about virtually any situation where someone has to do work they don't like, and that is not the same thing. Willingly doing work you hate is not the same thing as going to sleep with a purple face and a bleeding back because you are considered a farm animal. Oh, so your defination of slavery is limited to what the rest of the world deem as sex slaves.

so then all all forms bad?

YES!!! Is this really the conversation we're having?

baaaa baaaa (Sound sheep make) What of the 45 million in this world who depend on slavery to put food on the table and a roof over their heads? are you going to offer them a place to stay and food to eat?

what happens when you endenture yourself to a bank for 30 years for a home? 5 more for the newest car? 10 more for an "education?" Or do you simply think one does want to give the prime of one's life and the lion's share of it's effort over to a bank?

Oh my fucking god, dude...mortgages, car loans, and student loans are not slavery. I'm not normally one to say things like "Check your privelege," but seriously, dude. Come on. You cannot be equating having to pay bills to chattel slavery. That is fucking absurd.

watch the video moron.

Is that evil?

No more so than cutting out the middle man (Cash being the middle man) and calling a slave a slave. Cash is the illusion that makes you a slave feel free, when in fact most slaves to money work far harder than those who were called slaves in the OT

No, I'm pretty sure what makes me feel free is that I can live where I want, choose my job, and pursue my own interests without being beaten or killed for being an escapee. That's some serious crack-smoke you're blowing.

ah.. no. you can't choose crap. your creditentals uless you already work for tips can't choose anything. you go where the work is.

No it kinda does. It takes your argument that God is a blood thirsty monster who dashes babies against rocks, and re frames it to a slave "spiritual" singing about freedom and the opportunity to get back at their oppressors.

Hosea 13:14-15:

      [/b]Though he flourishes among the reeds,
            An east wind will come,
            The wind of the LORD coming up from the wilderness;
            And his fountain will become dry
            And his spring will be dried up;
            It will plunder his treasury of every precious article.

      [/b]Samaria will be held guilty,
            For she has rebelled against her God.
            They will fall by the sword,
            Their little ones will be dashed in pieces,
            And their pregnant women will be ripped open.

a warning to what was to come sport.

Numbers 31:16-18

[b]16[/b]“Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD.[b]17[/b]“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. [/b]“But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.

right on!

Deuteronomy 13:12-18

[b]12[/b]If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in [b]13[/b]that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), [b]14[/b]then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you,[b]15[/b]you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,a both its people and its livestock. [b]16[/b]You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, [b]17[/b]and none of the condemned thingsb are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors—[/b]because you obey the Lord your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

God is good/Alluakbar

Hosea 9: 11-16

[/b]Ephraim’s glory will fly away like a bird—
no birth, no pregnancy, no conception.
[/b]Even if they rear children,
I will bereave them of every one.
Woe to them
when I turn away from them!
[/b]I have seen Ephraim, like Tyre,
planted in a pleasant place.
But Ephraim will bring out
their children to the slayer.”

[/b]Give them, Lord—
what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
and breasts that are dry.

[/b]“Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal,
I hated them there.
Because of their sinful deeds,
I will drive them out of my house.
I will no longer love them;
all their leaders are rebellious.
[/b]Ephraim is blighted,
their root is withered,
they yield no fruit.
Even if they bear children,
I will slay their cherished offspring.”

call another prophesy/warning to the jews.

Like I said. There is no shortage of language like this in your book. [/quote] and when you frame it crrectly it simply describes a specific time or deed to be done or was to be done/warning. This was not a call to life nor a command in the way of living as intellectually dishonest people want to portray.

Your god is a blood-thirsty savage who loves animal and human sacrifice, and if you're really trying to say otherwise, you either haven't read your book, or you're once again being disingenuous.

 Show me where God demanded Human sacrifice.

Furthermore...I'd like some citation of your context, please. How do you know that this psalm was about slaves wishing death on their oppressors?

because the OT testament is divided up into 3 main sections. The book of the law/torah Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

Nebhim:
the book of prophets
Former Prophets - Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings
Latter Prophets - Isaiah , Jeremiah , Ezekiel ,

and the books of "writtings" Kethubim
Poetical Books - Psalms, Proverbs, Job
Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Esther, Ecclesiastes
and
Historical Books - Daniel , Ezra-Nehemiah, Chronicles.
were also consider writtings.
http://www.bible-history.com/old-testame...sions.html
http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

The OT wasn't meant for the fat and faithless to pick up and just read and understand. The OT represented a life time of training and study of tradition and unwritten understanding. that is why you habitually misquote what it is you think God is saying or doing.

What it shows to the intellectually honest is the level of dishonesty in those who tend to just skim the bible for negative words and attribute them to God. In other words people like you don't care what the bible really has to say. you form an opinion like:
and then you seek anything that half way supports what you already think..

Confirm you bias much?

If you can honestly read a book about a being who floods the world, smites cities, and commands wholesale genocide, and you still think that being is the source of all things good, then I'm not the one with a bias.

If you can't imagine a God who would go to such lengths to protect his children from Evil then it is you who are with bias. How hard is it to understand that not all who live belong to god? and of those who do not belong to God there are those who would physically and spiritually devoure all who are not like them.

What if ISIStook out 1/2 the wester major city's with dirty bombs or full on nukes? what if NK launched an attack and nuked a 12 american cities on the west coast, would it be so hard for you to bring yourself righteousn B/S to the boiling point and want to see those people wiped off the earth so they would never hurt you or your ever again? if not know those type of people will keep comming and keep escalitang till you or enough of the rest of us knock a bunch of them down for you.

[Succubus]

tl,dr
What an absolute abortion of a post. Get back here and edit that thing so I can see who's saying what, and stop fucking about with the colour pallet.

I have spoken.

[Minimalist]

I have spoken.

If you change that to "So Sayeth The Lord" Dripshit will piss his pants and do exactly as you wish!