God and the dilemma with unfalsifiability

[Godscreated]

More childish babble, I have never believed in magic and never will. I do believe in the capabilities of the omnipotent God of creation, much different than magic and some day you will realize this truth, hopefully not to late.

How is it different from magic?

I'll reply to the other stuff later but you believe in the bible and the bible refers to magic ...

The Bible refers to the omnipotent power of God and His omniscient mind to control that power for His purposes. Magic is man's illusion of power.

The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "When Pharaoh says to you, 'Perform a miracle,' then say to Aaron, 'Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,' and it will become a snake." So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts. (Exodus 7:8-11)

You may wiggle out this by referring to them as magic tricks, even though your bible does not say this but it doesn't matter. Because what you believe in is magic. It is the same difference. Whether it's some holy power or some magical power,  you believe in something that you think happens in real life even though it would defy all known physical laws but is, and always will be, impossible to explain.

Notice that God performed the miracle and the magicians used secret arts. Miracles have no natural explanation or as you put it impossible to explain. Secret arts then and now are a magicians illusion, meaning only a trick or slight of hand. This is simple stuff why do you try and complicate, do you really not understand. Many highly educated doctors have said that the healing can only be explained as a miracle.

GC

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It wasn't meant to be sexist, you just wanted it to be so you could rant, I find that truly childish and pitiful. You may be old in years but you have a very vindictive childish mind that needs to grow up and act responsible.

Your excuse for your own execrable choice of language is rejected.  You show your true colours regarding women elsewhere in the thread with your snark about feminists.

I can't possibly top you in the childish department.  You're sucking at the teat of a hell-creating god with a fetish for blood sacrifices, and threatening your mortal playmates that if they don't find a teat of their own and latch on, they're gonna be sooooooory.

As for vindictiveness, don't go there.  Just don't.  Even I don't know how deep that rabbit hole goes.

 You continue to show your childish ways, if being a feminist is your choice so be it, but you should understand if you want to be treated as men treat each other you're going to have to suck it up and take the heat. There's no room in this kind of attitude for the weak and there's nothing but equal treatment and men can be unkind to each other. Equal status receives equal treatment. Not threatening you just saying that's the world of men.
 Reject all you want what I said is true, if you were a man I would have used some cute remark kiddo, ect. You need to realize i'm not nor ever have been your enemy and I'm not sure why you are trying to make me one.  I take the bold by me above as a threat but will let it go.

GC

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More childish babble, I have never believed in magic and never will. I do believe in the capabilities of the omnipotent God of creation, much different than magic and some day you will realize this truth, hopefully not to late.

GC

Magic by a different name, is magic all the same.
Of course you believe in magic, GC. It's the crux of your belief system.

You just call it Something Else.

 Magic is an illusion, what God does isn't an illusion it is real and unexplainable. If you mean I would call it a miracle, you're right.

GC

[Astreja]

You continue to show your childish ways, if being a feminist is your choice so be it, but you should understand if you want to be treated as men treat each other you're going to have to suck it up and take the heat. There's no room in this kind of attitude for the weak and there's nothing but equal treatment and men can be unkind to each other. Equal status receives equal treatment. Not threatening you just saying that's the world of men.

I've worked in male-dominated fields for years, and I've had traditionally male hobbies since I was a child.  I was a senior IT technician at a university and taught courses in hardware and software.  I've always been the primary breadwinner for my family (and cheerfully rid myself of a lazy, unfaithful and abusive spouse).  I've done plumbing, roofing, framing carpentry, electrical work and electronics, concrete, ceramics, paint, wallpaper and plaster.  I also cook, sew, knit, crochet, maintain a garden, and brew my own mead.

I've paid off not one but two mortgages on two different houses.  I manage my own investments.  I can look at financial statements and explain them to you in plain English.  I do my own taxes.  I've administered a couple of estates.  I've been elected to boards of directors in community organizations.

I've studied 6 languages formally and can recognize bits and pieces of 20 more, including Latin, Hebrew and Greek.  I once won a regional math competition, and my SATs were in the high 700s.  I can sight-read music for multiple instruments.  I write, paint, sculpt, and do interior design.  I've shot a gun, shot a bow, wielded a fencing foil and a handful of Oriental weapons, and attained various ranks in several martial arts.  When I was in my 30s I could bench my own weight.  I'm still very much a novice at astronomy, but filling in the gaps in my knowledge very fast.

(Oh, yes -- I've given birth, too.  My daughter is an adult, also has a positive net worth and no debts, and is self-employed.)

I am your worst fucking nightmare -- a woman so dedicated to knowledge and so determined to acquire it that she will take the time to learn a new skill just for the sheer fun of it, and then turn that skill against you and smile quietly as she walks away.

[Godscreated]

God is spirit, what that actually is could only be a guess, I do know it means He doesn't have a physical body, being spirit allows Him to be everywhere in all times at all times  and contain powers we can not fathom.

So your god is an energy source? Can we harvest it to power our homes? What other example is there for a complex pattern of energy to persist without the use of matter? None. Therefore special pleading. Or you are saying that your god is neither energy nor matter? In which case how does your god interact with the world without energy? And again it's special pleading because you would be making up a entirely new form of ... 'stuff' that has never once been observed and has no plausible way of existing.

In a way He is. No we can't power our homes by it and you know good and well that question is stupid to say the least. I can tell you He can power your life if you will let Him. There is no special pleading when it come to the unexplainable God. Just because you can't wrap your mind around who and what God is doesn't discount that He exists in a form unknown to man, your mind like mine is finite, very finite and that leaves much to be discovered.

 He calls Himself Father because He created us and cares for us in many ways we never see, just like our earthly fathers do or at least the ones who love their children do.

 You probably have a feminist agenda against God referring to himself as male

 

Right so your god isn't actually male you are just imagining it as such. Your justification for calling your god as male can just as much be used to referring to it as female. It's not like your god has a penis, or reproductive organs to use with other goddesses, or has expressed any form of gender identity in your holy babblings.

God refers to himself as male and I accept that to be so, who am I to argue with the One who created me. You on the other hand would argue with a stump if you thought it would make you happy. There are no goddesses and God doesn't need such, He can do what pleases Him through His omnipotence. He made Adam from the substances of the earth and then placed his created self/soul into Adam's constructed body, this is what is meant as the breath of life. Adam's body would have just laid there if God hadn't given him his created soul.

And if your god is too complex for you to fully understand as a human, because be honest here, how could you fully understand something that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent as a mere animal? Then referring to it as male is just a useful handle on the concept. So why not pick a female handle if it's just as valid and some people would prefer it?

You are correct it is impossible to understand God fully and only an idiot would say so. By the way I'm a human being that God created, if you want to be some low level animal go right ahead, for me I enjoy being one of God's most special creations. God refers to himself as Father, why you have a problem with that is beyond me. The only people who would prefer God to be thought of as a woman are those who do not even believe in Him, no if that doesn't border on crazy I do not know what does.

 Because I have experienced God outside the Bible in my everyday life with Him. God through His grace has given me the knowledge of His existence, that's how relationships work when you want them to be good and lasting.

 

Yet you have no way of determining whether you actually experienced your god or you imagined it. Hence the reason that you claim that you need faith first, because otherwise the 'evidence' outside the bible won't come. It is indistinguishable from a confidence trick.

 Oh yes I know the difference and you would too if you ever experienced Him. The reason faith comes first is simply because we are asked to believe in an unseen God, just as Jesus said blessed are those who believe in Me without seeing Me, blessed I am. You can't get past ownership of something you in actuality do not own, once you over come that you might see things differently.

GC

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You continue to show your childish ways, if being a feminist is your choice so be it, but you should understand if you want to be treated as men treat each other you're going to have to suck it up and take the heat. There's no room in this kind of attitude for the weak and there's nothing but equal treatment and men can be unkind to each other. Equal status receives equal treatment. Not threatening you just saying that's the world of men.

I've worked in male-dominated fields for years, and I've had traditionally male hobbies since I was a child.  I was a senior IT technician at a university and taught courses in hardware and software.  I've always been the primary breadwinner for my family (and cheerfully rid myself of a lazy, unfaithful and abusive spouse).  I've done plumbing, roofing, framing carpentry, electrical work and electronics, concrete, ceramics, paint, wallpaper and plaster.  I also cook, sew, knit, crochet, maintain a garden, and brew my own mead.

I've paid off not one but two mortgages on two different houses.  I manage my own investments.  I can look at financial statements and explain them to you in plain English.  I do my own taxes.  I've administered a couple of estates.  I've been elected to boards of directors in community organizations.

I've studied 6 languages formally and can recognize bits and pieces of 20 more, including Latin, Hebrew and Greek.  I once won a regional math competition, and my SATs were in the high 700s.  I can sight-read music for multiple instruments.  I write, paint, sculpt, and do interior design.  I've shot a gun, shot a bow, wielded a fencing foil and a handful of Oriental weapons, and attained various ranks in several martial arts.  When I was in my 30s I could bench my own weight.  I'm still very much a novice at astronomy, but filling in the gaps in my knowledge very fast.

(Oh, yes -- I've given birth, too.  My daughter is an adult, also has a positive net worth and no debts, and is self-employed.)

I am your worst fucking nightmare -- a woman so dedicated to knowledge and so determined to acquire it that she will take the time to learn a new skill just for the sheer fun of it, and then turn that skill against you and smile quietly as she walks away.

 Congratulation to both of you and I'm sincere about this, you've accomplished so much, more than I have. But being my worst nightmare is an illusion, I also have many skills but the greatest is knowing I can trust in God. None of your skills frighten me, why should they I admire them in a woman or a man, I'm not going to toot my own horn and list the things I can do just know they are more than a few.

GC

[Astreja]

Congratulation to both of you and I'm sincere about this, you've accomplished so much, more than I have. But being my worst nightmare is an illusion, I also have many skills but the greatest is knowing I can trust in God. None of your skills frighten me, why should they I admire them in a woman or a man, I'm not going to toot my own horn and list the things I can do just know they are more than a few.

Thank you for the congratulations, GC.  Normally I wouldn't have resorted to such a massive CV, but being told that I'm childish and need to suck it up was a trifle annoying in the context of my experiences.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Yet you have no way of determining whether you actually experienced your god or you imagined it. Hence the reason that you claim that you need faith first, because otherwise the 'evidence' outside the bible won't come. It is indistinguishable from a confidence trick.

 Oh yes I know the difference and you would too if you ever experienced Him. The reason faith comes first is simply because we are asked to believe in an unseen God, just as Jesus said blessed are those who believe in Me without seeing Me, blessed I am. You can't get past ownership of something you in actuality do not own, once you over come that you might see things differently.

Except lots of atheists on this forum believed the same confidence trick that you do. They were just as convinced as you that they had experienced your god and then later realised, unlike you, that it was all bollocks.

All the answers that you have given me above are based on believing in this confidence trick and you can't back up any of it. You make plenty of assertions, such as about your god but provide absolutely no evidence. As Hitchins said, that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You say 'Many highly educated doctors have said that the healing can only be explained as a miracle' but provide no evidence for this statement. I'd certainly find a different doctor if my one said that to me.

You say that I am asking stupid questions but they only feel that way to you because you do not have critical thinking skills and therefore do not question your assumptions. If they were stupid questions then you'd be able to answer them with evidence and describing plausible mechanisms involved. You can't. All you can do is assert what you have been told yourself and do not question.

Does your god actually ever refer to himself as male? I don't personally know but I would be interested to see a passage in your bible were he does explicitly refer to himself as male. But again it's an assertion you are making without providing any evidence. You don't even try answering the question of why there a being can be something described as male if it's the only one that's ever been in existence. If it's male then it implicitly tells us that there are other gods who are not male., otherwise it's like referring to every part of the spectrum of light as purple.

You don't provide any evidence that your god created you. Again it's just something that you have been told and are repeating without evidence. Yet there is plenty of evidence for evolution and development of complexity since the Big Bang.

You mention Adam's body having a soul, but again, have just accepted this and not asked what a soul could possibly be. This is because you do nt have critical thinking skills. No doubt you would say that it's a stupid question, but at the same time be able to answer yet another seemingly stupid question.

Questions are not stupid if you cannot answer them. Referring to them as stupid shows us just how deeply indoctrinated you are.


Your god's power is also indistinguishable from an illusion and you can provide no evidence that it isn't.


P.S Feminists do not want to be men, they want all genders to be treated equally.

[Astonished]

Congratulation to both of you and I'm sincere about this, you've accomplished so much, more than I have. But being my worst nightmare is an illusion, I also have many skills but the greatest is knowing I can trust in God. None of your skills frighten me, why should they I admire them in a woman or a man, I'm not going to toot my own horn and list the things I can do just know they are more than a few.

Thank you for the congratulations, GC.  Normally I wouldn't have resorted to such a massive CV, but being told that I'm childish and need to suck it up was a trifle annoying in the context of my experiences.

Considering he's defended slavery and women being treated as property like in the good book, it might have been more appropriate to throw that back in his smug lying face, but you do you. Considering his greatest skill is not realizing he doesn't know something that he thinks he does, it's a wonder there's still oxygen circulating in his system.

[Astreja]

Considering he's defended slavery and women being treated as property like in the good book, it might have been more appropriate to throw that back in his smug lying face, but you do you. Considering his greatest skill is not realizing he doesn't know something that he thinks he does, it's a wonder there's still oxygen circulating in his system.

I take the good stuff where I can get it.  If there's to be any common ground in this conversation, it won't do to automatically reject something because of who it's coming from -- and the "why"  of a comment is something that only the speaker can fully understand.

And one reason I keep participating on forums like AF is to get a sense of the people behind the words.  Can't spend my whole life being a stereotypical atheist slugging it out with a stereotypical believer...

[ignoramus]

Astreja. You're a good honest person.
When dealing with indoctrinated people, sometimes all they want of us is the stereotype. How can anyone have a sincere and honest discussion with a theist about their God when their indoctrination won't even allow them to be honest with themselves.

When discussing any other topic, eg: poop, alcohol, coffee, etc, they are just like real normal honest down to earth people!
Except for just one topic. And this forum is dedicated to that one topic, so yeah, good luck...

[Harry Nevis]

So your god is an energy source? Can we harvest it to power our homes? What other example is there for a complex pattern of energy to persist without the use of matter? None. Therefore special pleading. Or you are saying that your god is neither energy nor matter? In which case how does your god interact with the world without energy? And again it's special pleading because you would be making up a entirely new form of ... 'stuff' that has never once been observed and has no plausible way of existing.

In a way He is. No we can't power our homes by it and you know good and well that question is stupid to say the least. I can tell you He can power your life if you will let Him. There is no special pleading when it come to the unexplainable God. Just because you can't wrap your mind around who and what God is doesn't discount that He exists in a form unknown to man, your mind like mine is finite, very finite and that leaves much to be discovered.

Good job explaining the unexplainable.

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How is it different from magic?

I'll reply to the other stuff later but you believe in the bible and the bible refers to magic ...

The Bible refers to the omnipotent power of God and His omniscient mind to control that power for His purposes. Magic is man's illusion of power.

Don't really care what the bible says.  Never has been a miracle.

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Godscreated He calls Himself Father because He created us and cares for us in many ways we never see, just like our earthly fathers do or at least the ones who love their children do.

Really? Where in the bible does god refer to himself as father?

[Astonished]

In a way He is. No we can't power our homes by it and you know good and well that question is stupid to say the least. I can tell you He can power your life if you will let Him. There is no special pleading when it come to the unexplainable God. Just because you can't wrap your mind around who and what God is doesn't discount that He exists in a form unknown to man, your mind like mine is finite, very finite and that leaves much to be discovered.

Good job explaining the unexplainable.

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The Bible refers to the omnipotent power of God and His omniscient mind to control that power for His purposes. Magic is man's illusion of power.

Don't really care what the bible says.  Never has been a miracle.

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Godscreated He calls Himself Father because He created us and cares for us in many ways we never see, just like our earthly fathers do or at least the ones who love their children do.

Really? Where in the bible does god refer to himself as father?

It's in there somewhere. I have a friend who majored in religion and told me about it, where it was more like he was asking his chosen people to call him 'daddy' rather than the more formal 'father'. Maybe he was just playing around, I don't know. Or care much since I'm not the one who believes in any of it.