Jesus vs Muhammad

[orthodox-man]

I saw an NDE where he was depicted like that

You saw an NDE of another person?

No, I read about a testimony where the NDEr described seeing Jesus as clean shaven, wearing the same clothes.

[vulcanlogician]

What is it about NDEs that makes some people think that they disclose credible information about the nature of the universe?

Edit: Would you put much credence in a dream? What's the difference?

[orthodox-man]

What is it about NDEs that makes some people think that they disclose credible information about the nature of the universe?

Edit: Would you put much credence in a dream? What's the difference?

I have read tons of NDEs. Dreams are usually strange, they don't always make sense, sometimes you can even tell it is a dream. NDEs are always so organized, clear, seeing dead relatives, having a life review, etc. I just want to know, if they are indeed dreams/hallucinations, and cultural, then a CHristian should see Jesus and a Muslim should see Muhammad, yet look it up, there are no documented cases of a Muslim meeting Muhammad. I have no idea why. You would think a Muslim could hallucinate Muhammad, but apparently not.

[The Grand Nudger]

Why would a muslim think he -should- see Mo?  He's not their god, like jesus is god for christians.  That's not at all what they would expect, so it's not what we should expect. Meanwhile, muslim NDE accounts are (at least as told) precisely in line with their religious norms and what they expect to see..same as christian accounts.  Interestingly, there is what could be considered an out of body experience -in- the quran.  It's his midnight ride.  

What people seeing funny things under extreme duress would have to do with any actual jesus or mo..however, I have no earthly idea. None of it proves any religion over the other..and point of fact, they're both complete horseshit, lol.

To even make the attempt, as doomed to failure as it will be..for either religion or any religion....you're going to have to take a much, much more direct approach. Proving, for example..the religion, rather than that people see things.

[orthodox-man]

Why would a muslim think he -should- see Mo?  He's not their god, like jesus is god for christians.  That's not at all what they would expect, so it's not what we should expect.  Meanwhile, muslim NDE accounts are (at least as told) precisely in line with their religious norms and what they expect to see..same as christian accounts.  Interestingly, there is what could be considered an out of body experience -in- the quran.  It's his midnight ride.  

What people seeing funny shit would have to do with any actual jesus or mo..however, I have no earthly idea.

I'm not sure exactly what they believe to see, but I see your point. It's just that they always talk about Muhammad, so I guess Christians assume he is to them what Jesus is to us. Most NDEs don't have a particular deity, but it's still strange that Christians will always mention seeing a long haired man named Jesus, who has his arms out, shows his wrists and scars,Muslims and Hindus don't commonly see figures prominent within their faiths. I just wonder, does this give Christianity more clout than Islam?

[The Grand Nudger]

Jesus as you believe in him is heresy to muslims.  They believe he was a very significant prophet, not a god.  So..that would be like christians dying and seeing Moses.

No, it doesn't give christianity an ounce of clout, either over islam or in the general. NDEs don;t advance the truth of a religion a single iota.

[vulcanlogician]

I have read tons of NDEs. Dreams are usually strange, they don't always make sense, sometimes you can even tell it is a dream. NDEs are always so organized, clear, seeing dead relatives, having a life review, etc.

Just because the experience is clear and coherent, this does not enable it to support claims about the nature of the universe.

On a side note, perhaps Christians "see" Christ because they are inundated with iconography, which is forbidden among Muslims. Doesn't this seem as equally plausible an explanation as "one of the gods is real, the other isn't"....?

[GrandizerII]

Why would a muslim think he -should- see Mo?  He's not their god, like jesus is god for christians.  That's not at all what they would expect, so it's not what we should expect.  Meanwhile, muslim NDE accounts are (at least as told) precisely in line with their religious norms and what they expect to see..same as christian accounts.  Interestingly, there is what could be considered an out of body experience -in- the quran.  It's his midnight ride.  

What people seeing funny shit would have to do with any actual jesus or mo..however, I have no earthly idea.

I'm not sure exactly what they believe to see, but I see your point. It's just that they always talk about Muhammad, so I guess Christians assume he is to them what Jesus is to us. Most NDEs don't have a particular deity, but it's still strange that Christians will always mention seeing a long haired man named Jesus, who has his arms out, shows his wrists and scars,Muslims and Hindus don't commonly see figures prominent within their faiths. I just wonder, does this give Christianity more clout than Islam?

Bolded mine. Probably because of the common pictures of Jesus depicting him as such. And how come non-Christians mostly don't see in their NDEs what Christian believers like you should expect them to see?

Examine these Hindu NDEs:

https://www.near-death.com/religion/hinduism.html

Do you see eternal hell or Satan or Jesus or whatever in there?

[orthodox-man]

I have read tons of NDEs. Dreams are usually strange, they don't always make sense, sometimes you can even tell it is a dream. NDEs are always so organized, clear, seeing dead relatives, having a life review, etc.

Just because the experience is clear and coherent, this does not enable it to support claims about the nature of the universe.

On a side note, perhaps Christians "see" Christ because they are inundated with iconography, which is forbidden among Muslims. Doesn't this seem as equally plausible an explanation as "one of the gods is real, the other isn't"....?

ok, then why do they dream about him?

https://islamqa.info/en/23367

https://qa.islam.com/s/31583/i_saw_proph...#gsc.tab=0

it says in the Hadith that this is possible. So if they can dream about him, why can't they hallucinate him in NDEs? If they want to dream about him, it proves he is very significant to them, so why don't they want to see him after death?

---

Jesus as you believe in him is heresy to muslims.  They believe he was a very significant prophet, not a god.  So..that would be like christians dying and seeing Moses.

No, it doesn't give christianity an ounce of clout, either over islam or in the general.  NDEs don;t advance the truth of a religion a single iota.

ok, then why do they dream about him?

https://islamqa.info/en/23367

https://qa.islam.com/s/31583/i_saw_proph...#gsc.tab=0

it says in the Hadith that this is possible. So if they can dream about him, why can't they hallucinate him in NDEs? If they want to dream about him, it proves he is very significant to them, so why don't they want to see him after death?

---

I'm not sure exactly what they believe to see, but I see your point. It's just that they always talk about Muhammad, so I guess Christians assume he is to them what Jesus is to us. Most NDEs don't have a particular deity, but it's still strange that Christians will always mention seeing a long haired man named Jesus, who has his arms out, shows his wrists and scars,Muslims and Hindus don't commonly see figures prominent within their faiths. I just wonder, does this give Christianity more clout than Islam?

Bolded mine. Probably because of the common pictures of Jesus depicting him as such. And how come non-Christians mostly don't see in their NDEs what Christian believers like you should expect them to see?

Examine these Hindu NDEs:

https://www.near-death.com/religion/hinduism.html

Do you see eternal hell or Satan or Jesus or whatever in there?

No, but they don't see Krishna in Hindu NDEs either. I just think it's strange that these top deities in their faith can be dreamt about but not seen in NDEs. If NDEs are dreams, then they should see what they dream about too. The fact that they don't makes me think that NDEs might be something more than that.

[vulcanlogician]

These arguments might be more salient if you discussed them with Muslims or Hindus. The question that has been put to you more than once is: why is an NDE counted as an experience that discloses anything about the universe?

Atheists don't tend to put much stock in such experiences at all. Who cares about the contents of those experiences?