Arguing with Anti-Vaxxer friend

[LadyForCamus]

An anti-vaxxer friend of mine just sent me this, but it’s over my head.  Can anyone help me out?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25699008/

Thanks, loves! 

[vulcanlogician]

I couldn't follow it either, but I did find a couple paragraphs that I could sort of understand:

Billions of humans have been vaccinated and marked regression or eradication of several severe infectious diseases was observed. Nowadays, the potential applications of vaccines extend far beyond prevention of infectious diseases, and vaccination is considered to be a most promising weapon against a variety of different conditions. Vaccine safety has been regarded as excellent at the level of the population (1), but adverse effects have also been reported (2).

Concerns about the use of aluminum adjuvants have emerged following (i) recognition of their role at the origin of the so-called macrophagic myofasciitis (MMF) lesion in 2001 (3, 4), which revealed fundamental misconception of their adjuvant effect and pointed out their unexpectedly long-lasting biopersistence (4); and (ii) demonstration of their apparent capacity to migrate in lymphoid organs and then disseminate throughout the body within monocyte-lineage cells and progressively accumulate in the brain (5).

So, apparently the study concerns the adverse effects of aluminum adjuvants, a component found in some vaccines. Apparently, the reactions only occur in a few individuals.

[Minimalist]

Then by all means tell them not to get vaccinated.

And also to stay away from you.

[The Valkyrie]

If he’s an anti vaxxer he can’t be a friend.

[LadyForCamus]

If he’s an anti vaxxer he can’t be a friend.

Valk!  You’re a doctor!  You gotta give me more than jokes, woman! 😝

[Angrboda]

Ask your friend to explain what it means to them in their own words. Then see if that understanding is a relevant and valid concern. This study seems to highlight the potential for alum from vaccine adjuvants to accumulate in the brain as a consequence of repeated exposure. I'd have to read the study to quantify the amounts considered by the study, the amount needed for one's exposure to be problematic, and the actual quantity of alum adjuvant one is likely to be exposed to from vaccines and other sources. Unless those factors are known and related to each other, the consolidation in the brain which the article discusses cannot be determined to be relevant to the supposed pathological consequences of them. So it's unclear whether the exposure risk that one suffers as a consequence of vaccination significantly enhances risk of certain pathological outcomes. The abstract doesn't say.

[LadyForCamus]

Ask your friend to explain what it means to them in their own words.  Then see if that understanding is a relevant and valid concern.  This study seems to highlight the potential for alum from vaccine adjuvants to accumulate in the brain as a consequence of repeated exposure.  I'd have to read the study to quantify the amounts considered by the study, the amount needed for one's exposure to be problematic, and the actual quantity of alum adjuvant one is likely to be exposed to from vaccines and other sources.  Unless those factors are known and related to each other, the consolidation in the brain which the article discusses cannot be determined to be relevant to the supposed pathological consequences of them.   So it's unclear whether the exposure risk that one suffers as a consequence of vaccination significantly enhances risk of certain pathological outcomes.  The abstract doesn't say.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.  If you’re up for doing me the favor I have the full article. If not, that’s fine too, Ofc. 🙂

In case anyone wants a crack at it:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318414/

---

A few sections that stood out to me were:

...as shown in a recent review of 130 consecutive deltoid muscle biopsies performed for diagnostic purposes in myalgic patients previously immunized with alum-containing vaccines. This study revealed that most alum receivers do not have long-lasting MMF. This could be reliably assessed whereas age, sex ratio, number of alum-adjuvanted injections, and delays elapsed from the last injection to deltoid muscle biopsy were similar in the MMF and non-MMF groups (43). This refutes non-documented belief that every vaccinee may have long-standing MMF lesions when biopsy is performed in the deltoid muscle.

We have identified selective increase of circulating MCP-1/CCL2 in CFS/ME patients with MMF (45). The imbalance between the huge number of vaccinated individuals and the relatively low number of MMF cases suggests crucial involvement of individual susceptibility factors in intolerance to alum. Genetically driven MCP-1/CCL2 production might represent one of these factors (5).

And from the conclusion:

It is important to look for genetic susceptibility factors that could explain why a given individual will appear intolerant to alum-containing vaccines whereas the vast majority of individuals vaccinated with the same vaccines remain healthy.

Seems like they’re indicating that a small segment of the population may be genetically susceptible to certain illnesses that may be triggered by the alum in vaccines.

[Whateverist]

Anyone seen the "ain't nobody got time to read that shit" gif?

For me these are just one of many types of conspiracy theorists. I don't like going down any of their rabbit holes. Keep your kids safe and well away from theirs.

[LadyForCamus]

After doing a bit more digging, there does appear to be some recent data calling the long term safety of the aluminum adjuvants into question, but it seems like more of a question mark than anything else right now. But again, I’m no doctor or scientist.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

If your anti-vaxxer friend is concerned about this, answering two questions should settle the whole thing.

1.  How many lives have been saved as a direct result of vaccinations?

2.  How many lives have been lost due to metal poisoning from vaccinations?

There is a risk to - quite literally - everything. The question isn't 'Is there a risk to vaccinations?' but 'Are vaccinations worth the risk?'  I had a mate (this is years and years ago) who suffered a broken leg in a car crash.  He had the leg set at RVH, managed to contract sepsis, and very nearly died of it.  Does this mean setting a broken bone has an inherent risk?  Yes.  Does this mean that setting broken bones is a risky enough procedure to end the practice?  Come on.

Boru