Should ISIS fighters/wives/children be repatriated?

[fredd bear]

It doesn't really matter what ISIS is or isn't.  If you know that ISIS is considered an enemy of the state, and you stand with them, then you will be considered an enemy of the state and treated as such.  I don't see how any amount of goofy rationalizing gets around this.

 Yes and no.

Do you remember the Patty Hearst case?   It was from that situation the concept of 'Stockholm Syndrome'  emerged. Not saying this case is the same, only that such cases are not always black and white. I'd certainly  need to see some evidence from credible  sources .

 Apologies if I'm confused; was this the girl who was 15 at the time? In my country it is recognised that the teenage brain is still a work in progress. For that reason we have the legal concept of  'minor children',being children under 18 years. We do not  try children as adults.

 If this young woman went there at 15, her claim of being brainwashed may well be true. Most certainly needs to be investigated, objectively, according to evidence ,to which I do not have access
.
I'm not making any claims, merely giving an opinion.  I'm not in any position to judge this young woman. Nor, imo, is anyone else on this forum, unless they are privy to a very different level of evidence than the rest of us.

Trial by media and public opinion scares the shit out of me. This hit home  in Australia with the Lindy Chamberlain case. (1982) This case was later seen as one of the more egregious miscarriages of justice in Australian history. Lindy Chamberlains was tried and convicted by media and public opinion.

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Stockholm syndrome is a condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity.[1] These feelings, resulting from a bond formed between captor and captives during intimate time spent together, are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims. Generally speaking, Stockholm syndrome consists of "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."[2] The FBI's Hostage Barricade Database System shows that roughly eight percent of victims show evidence of Stockholm syndrome.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

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Alice Lynne "Lindy" Chamberlain-Creighton (née Murchison; born 4 March 1948) is a New Zealand-born woman who was wrongfully convicted in one of Australia's most publicised murder trials. Accused of killing her nine-week-old daughter, Azaria, while camping at Uluru (then usually known as Ayers Rock) in 1980, she maintained that she saw a dingo leave the tent where Azaria was sleeping. The prosecution case was circumstantial and depended on forensic evidence. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_Cham...-Creighton

[bennyboy]

Stockholm Syndrome is a justification after the fact-- so if you're kidnapped by ISIS, then start to defend them because you've made an emotional connection with them in that difficult and stressful time, that's you. That doesn't include people hating their lives and deciding that a fresh start in the heart of fundamental Islam is the way to go.

[Yonadav]

Hoda Muthana was 20 years old when she stole the money that her parents gave her for tuition and paid for her trip to Syria with that money. After entering Syria, she posted a picture of herself holding her US passport, posted it on her social media, and wrote that the passport was going into a bonfire.

She spent years working for ISIS as a social media propagandist. She frequently called for American blood. She was an active member of ISIS all the way up to the time that she was captured. It was immediately after being captured that she claimed that she regretted the things that she did, claimed to have been brainwashed, and wanted to return to the US.

She is an enemy soldier--period.

[Brian37]

Stockholm Syndrome is a justification after the fact-- so if you're kidnapped by ISIS, then start to defend them because you've made an emotional connection with them in that difficult and stressful time, that's you.  That doesn't include people hating their lives and deciding that a fresh start in the heart of fundamental Islam is the way to go.

I don't think that always happens. That can happen.

But take Jim Jones for example. Everyone went voluntary at first. But many upon arriving realized he was a nut but were too afraid to challenge him and his armed loyalists. 

I think she, like a alot of youth felt disillusioned with the west, thought Isis were the real heros, got there and realized they were nuts.

Just like Jim Jones promised his followers a utopia if they would just support him.


The fact that she said she was willing to come back to America and face prosecution really is not that different than a domestic criminal here turning themselves in and confessing out of guilt.

[Amarok]

Um yes and no.

This gullible woman probably stupidly thought that women had equal rights under Isis. Is is is like the Islamic version of our LDS. I am betting when she got there she realized she was going to be nothing but a baby factory. 

I am also sure that  that European and Muslim American men probably go thinking they are fighting for minority rights, but when they get there do not realize Isis is nothing more than a brutal sub sect of Islam, just like the KKK is a sub sect of Christianity.

No, women aren't as dumb as you are. She knew what ISIS is.

Did she ? Did she know the extent ?

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Hoda Muthana was 20 years old when she stole the money that her parents gave her for tuition and paid for her trip to Syria with that money.

Irrelevant 

After entering Syria, she posted a picture of herself holding her US passport, posted it on her social media, and wrote that the passport was going into a bonfire.

And?

She spent years working for ISIS as a social media propagandist. She frequently called for American blood. She was an active member of ISIS all the way up to the time that she was captured. It was immediately after being captured that she claimed that she regretted the things that she did, claimed to have been brainwashed, and wanted to return to the US.

Yup and whos to say she was saying that of her own accord 

She is an enemy soldier--period.

Nope she's a former cult member who wants to leave it .

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Stockholm Syndrome is a justification after the fact-- so if you're kidnapped by ISIS, then start to defend them because you've made an emotional connection with them in that difficult and stressful time, that's you.  That doesn't include people hating their lives and deciding that a fresh start in the heart of fundamental Islam is the way to go.

I don't think that always happens. That can happen.

But take Jim Jones for example. Everyone went voluntary at first. But many upon arriving realized he was a nut but were too afraid to challenge him and his armed loyalists. 

I think she, like a alot of youth felt disillusioned with the west, thought Isis were the real heros, got there and realized they were nuts.

Just like Jim Jones promised his followers a utopia if they would just support him.


The fact that she said she was willing to come back to America and face prosecution really is not that different than a domestic criminal here turning themselves in and confessing out of guilt.

Agreed it possible to join a cult believing it's propaganda (otherwise they wouldn't make propaganda )  act on it's behalf then become  disillusioned with it's goals and it's people .

[Anomalocaris]

This illegal idiot indulgent vindictiveness gives me very little hope that we will see our way through to the end of the era of petulant self inflicted decline and unraveling that began with 9/11.

In very critical ways trump is a product of the normalization of the overweening and overt contempt for the rule, norms and standards of a relatively well ordered and cooperative nation and world that began with the cynical, indulgent and opportunistic American reaction to 9/11.

[fredd bear]

Hoda Muthana was 20 years old when she stole the money that her parents gave her for tuition and paid for her trip to Syria with that money. After entering Syria, she posted a picture of herself holding her US passport, posted it on her social media, and wrote that the passport was going into a bonfire.

She spent years working for ISIS as a social media propagandist. She frequently called for American blood. She was an active member of ISIS all the way up to the time that she was captured. It was immediately after being captured that she claimed that she regretted the things that she did, claimed to have been brainwashed, and wanted to return to the US.

She is an enemy soldier--period.


OK, I got her confused with a current case. All of what  I know about this case comes from here.  

I'm seeing some pretty interesting claims of certainty of guilt made here. I don't have access to the  of hard evidence needed to convict a person which you seem to have..I do not accept the media or internets forum as credible sources of evidence in much of anything, but most especially in matters of a criminal trial.

My basic position is unchanged: I do not support trail by media or public opinion. In my country we have  a legal position called' The presumption of innocence". I was unaware that principle had been abolished in the US.

[Fireball]

Hoda Muthana was 20 years old when she stole the money that her parents gave her for tuition and paid for her trip to Syria with that money. After entering Syria, she posted a picture of herself holding her US passport, posted it on her social media, and wrote that the passport was going into a bonfire.

She spent years working for ISIS as a social media propagandist. She frequently called for American blood. She was an active member of ISIS all the way up to the time that she was captured. It was immediately after being captured that she claimed that she regretted the things that she did, claimed to have been brainwashed, and wanted to return to the US.

She is an enemy soldier--period.


OK, I got her confused with a current case. All of what  I know about this case comes from here.  

I'm seeing some pretty interesting claims of certainty of guilt made here. I don't have access to the  of hard evidence needed to convict a person which you seem to have..I do not accept the media or internets forum as credible sources of evidence in much of anything, but most especially in matters of a criminal trial.

My basic position is unchanged: I do not support trail by media or public opinion. In my country we have  a legal position called' The presumption of innocence". I was unaware that principle had been abolished in the US.

Those of us here in the "chattering classes" get to say whatever we want behind our monitors. Everything offered here is an opinion, and of course not necessarily a legal one. You seem bent on reforming the people here, but the fact is we get to say whatever the hell we want, and are allowed to be "wrong" simply because we are not legal professionals, and are offering non-binding opinions. The US also has a presumption of innocence in courts of law. This forum is not a court of law. I don't support trial by media or public opinion, either. The ultimate result of this woman's case likely won't be adjudicated by anyone on this site, either.

[fredd bear]

Those of us here in the "chattering classes" get to say whatever we want behind our monitors. Everything offered here is an opinion, and of course not necessarily a legal one. You seem bent on reforming the people here, but the fact is we get to say whatever the hell we want, and are allowed to be "wrong" simply because we are not legal professionals, and are offering non-binding opinions. The US also has a presumption of innocence in courts of law. This forum is not a court of law. I don't support trial by media or public opinion, either. The ultimate result of this woman's case likely won't be adjudicated by anyone on this site, either.

@Fireball

I'm really not trying to reform anyone, or even change minds.

I too may post my own opinion, which is what I've done. I do know the difference between a court and an internet forum.

However, there is also a difference between freedom and licence.  Imo, that line is crossed when gossip  passes for informed opinion, and when that gossip is made public, such as here.  Then  it's open slather.

Of Course, say what you like ,as will I.  That I call out something  with which I disagree not mean I actually expect anything  to change. The very best I could possibly hope for is that just perhaps some one might consider an alternate view, just for a minute.  I do it most days; there are some people here whose opinions I hold in high regard. 

In this case I like to think we can agree to differ. I have nothing further to say on this matter. By all mean have the last word.  

[bennyboy]

Stockholm Syndrome is a justification after the fact-- so if you're kidnapped by ISIS, then start to defend them because you've made an emotional connection with them in that difficult and stressful time, that's you.  That doesn't include people hating their lives and deciding that a fresh start in the heart of fundamental Islam is the way to go.

I don't think that always happens. That can happen.

But take Jim Jones for example. Everyone went voluntary at first. But many upon arriving realized he was a nut but were too afraid to challenge him and his armed loyalists. 

I think she, like a alot of youth felt disillusioned with the west, thought Isis were the real heros, got there and realized they were nuts.

Just like Jim Jones promised his followers a utopia if they would just support him.


The fact that she said she was willing to come back to America and face prosecution really is not that different than a domestic criminal here turning themselves in and confessing out of guilt.

I'm pretty sure that when all these people joined ISIS, that group was already known to be an enemy of the state.  It's not like they were just organic farming, and then one guy tripped over an AK47 on his way to the market and decided to turn it into a military religious militia. I'm not even saying it's a moral issue-- if they want to join ISIS, let them join ISIS. But if you join an enemy of the state, and then decide the comforts of home suited you better, you're not really in a position to expect much sympathy.