Why we might be alone in the Universe

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Until we learn what came before the Big Bang for certain we're still being schooled.

[Anomalocaris]

Based on our understanding of physics, there are certain things, such as probing quantum world at extremely tiny scale, that in principle can only be done with expenditure of ever more enormous amount of energy.  The law of thermodynamics says there is in principle a limit to how efficient such expenditure of energy can be.   So there is an argument that as civilization become more advanced then ours, it will inevitably leak ever more in principle unavoidable waste energy, most likely in the form of EM.

And yet we don't seem to be able to detect this leakage, at least in any form that would indicate it comes from technology.  I happily grant your point that we haven't explored much of the universe, but it seems telling that everywhere we have looked, we've found nothing.

Boru

1. We are extremely short sighted.

2. We can only see a small percentage of things within our visual range.

3. We can only imagine what technological civilization looks like, and only a tony percentage of what we imagine technological civilization to look like consist of things we can actually see, if it were within range

4. We have no idea what other technological civilization actually looks like.


It’s like a person on a surf board seeking what is on the ocean floor by reaching once or twice down with his hand, and feeling notions, claiming there is thus likely nothing on the ocean floor since everywhere he felt there was nothing.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

And yet we don't seem to be able to detect this leakage, at least in any form that would indicate it comes from technology.  I happily grant your point that we haven't explored much of the universe, but it seems telling that everywhere we have looked, we've found nothing.

Boru

1. We are extremely short sighted.

2. We can only see a small percentage of things within our visual range.

3. We can only imagine what technological civilization looks like, and only a tony percentage of what we imagine technological civilization to look like consist of things we can actually see, if it were within range

4. We have no idea what other technological civilization actually looks like.


It’s like a person on a surf board seeking what is on the ocean floor by reaching once or twice down with his hand, and feeling notions, claiming there is thus likely nothing on the ocean floor since everywhere he felt there was nothing.

If the comparison is to astronomy, it would be better to liken it to 1000 people on 1000 surfboards all of them equipped with sonar, radar, depth finders and acoustic sensors looking for a very specific object on the ocean floor for 50 years and completely failing to find it.

Boru

[Anomalocaris]

1. We are extremely short sighted.

2. We can only see a small percentage of things within our visual range.

3. We can only imagine what technological civilization looks like, and only a tony percentage of what we imagine technological civilization to look like consist of things we can actually see, if it were within range

4. We have no idea what other technological civilization actually looks like.


It’s like a person on a surf board seeking what is on the ocean floor by reaching once or twice down with his hand, and feeling notions, claiming there is thus likely nothing on the ocean floor since everywhere he felt there was nothing.

If the comparison is to astronomy, it would be better to liken it to 1000 people on 1000 surfboards all of them equipped with sonar, radar, depth finders and acoustic sensors looking for a very specific object on the ocean floor for 50 years and completely failing to find it.

Boru

No, it’s more like one person groping for 3 minutes with both his hands in water 3 miles deep and covering 3/4 of the size of the planet.  He is looking for an object,  But he has no idea how big it is, how deep it is, or where it is.

He is feeling for a specific feel, because that is all he could feel, not because the object would necessarily feel that way even if by chance his hands come into contact with it.

[AFTT47]

What astronomers look for is a construct called a Dyson Swarm. It is basically a shitload of artificial objects such as rotating habitats which surround a star. There would be an unmistakable infrared signature from such an object. We should see them if they are there.

I've never been convinced by the argument that technological civilizations will inevitably build these and I'm definitely not convinced that a civilization would eventually do this with every system in the galaxy. It's based on the animal instinct to multiply, something I believe all life-forms would lose when they inevitably augment themselves with technology.

[Brian37]

Until we learn what came before the Big Bang for certain we're still being schooled.

It is true, currently that we don't know if something or nothing was prior. That really does not matter to me knowing that a super cognition is not required as an answer to either.

I think there is an infinity, but not in some superstitious magical sense. But more like a light switch. It can be off for a temporary time, a quantum twitch, boom to on for a while, burn out, go back to off and cycle between those two finite states repeatedly. Much like the seasons on earth are finite, but overlap and repeat.

But either way, a super cognition is not required as a gap answer.

[Anomalocaris]

What astronomers look for is a construct called a Dyson Swarm. It is basically a shitload of artificial objects such as rotating habitats which surround a star. There would be an unmistakable infrared signature from such an object. We should see them if they are there.

I've never been convinced by the argument that technological civilizations will inevitably build these and I'm definitely not convinced that a civilization would eventually do this with every system in the galaxy. It's based on the animal instinct to multiply, something I believe all life-forms would lose when they inevitably augment themselves with technology.

It was not a dyson swarm they were specifically looking for.   They were simply fishing.  If kardeshev scale has any merit, then successful miles stones in technological and civilization advancements would be marked by exponential increase in energy use.  Thermodynamics would say as matter of fundamentals principle exponential increase in energy use necessarily lead to exponential increase in energy wasted that must somehow be dissipated or civilization would cook in its own waste energy.   They were hoping the  waste energy would be dissipated in the EM form they can see.

But all this is too theoretical for the likes of CNN, so some concrete scenario must be contrived to let the less theoretically minded to visualize how different levels of energy use on the kardeshev scale can be realized, and how waste heat from such use would be dissipated. Hence the dyson swarm became involved.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

If the comparison is to astronomy, it would be better to liken it to 1000 people on 1000 surfboards all of them equipped with sonar, radar, depth finders and acoustic sensors looking for a very specific object on the ocean floor for 50 years and completely failing to find it.

Boru

No, it’s more like one person groping for 3 minutes with both his hands in water 3 miles deep and covering 3/4 of the size of the planet.  He is looking for an object,  But he has no idea how big it is, how deep it is, or where it is.

He is feeling for a specific feel, because that is all he could feel, not because the object would necessarily feel that way even if by chance his hands come into contact with it.

If all of our astronomical observations were done with only the naked eye, your analogy would hold up.  They aren't, so it doesn't.

Boru

[Anomalocaris]

No, it’s more like one person groping for 3 minutes with both his hands in water 3 miles deep and covering 3/4 of the size of the planet.  He is looking for an object,  But he has no idea how big it is, how deep it is, or where it is.

He is feeling for a specific feel, because that is all he could feel, not because the object would necessarily feel that way even if by chance his hands come into contact with it.

If all of our astronomical observations were done with only the naked eye, your analogy would hold up.  They aren't, so it doesn't.

Boru

The analogy is not trying to parallel the relationship between what we already see and what we can visualize now.  It is trying to recapitulate the relationship between what we already see, and what might yet be out there which our wildest imagination may not be prepared to touch upon for a very long time.    There is absolutely no reason why signs of alien civilization must reside within or close to what we can visualize now.

So If all of our astronomical observations were done with the naked eye the analogy would be plumbing the depth of the ocean with the tip of our left hand’s little finger.  But thanks to our technology we are now so vastly ahead we have now reached as unfathomably deep as our elbow, and have covered so much more as with both of our elbows.   It is inconceivable there could be things in the ocean we have not felt?  And we must take seriously the proposition that there is nothing to be felt?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Aliens use telepathy for communication. They use teleportation for travel. They strongly resemble the Markovians with regard to technology.

Therefore we have a looooooooong time before we detect them. And they don't give a flying fuck about us until we can.