Stoicism

[emjay]

Looks like I misunderstood what you were calling selfish, Boru. I don't know much about the underlying philosophy of Stoicism, but I was just thinking about the practical aspect of it, of, similar to Buddhism, not trying to control the external environment but rather how you respond to it. I don't see that as selfish or not just a useful tool or perspective to have on the world.

When I said ‘selfish’ I didn’t mean as in the sense of greedy or spiteful, just that stoicism’s primary focus is on improving the Self. There’s nothing particularly wrong with that (we could all do with some self-improvement), but I’m not convinced that individuals living virtuously will necessarily extend that virtue to society as a whole.

Utilitarianism, on the other hand is just the opposite. While bits of it are certainly problematic, its focus is the greatest good for the greatest number in order to reach maximal happiness for as many people as possible. It’s a goal I find to be more laudable and useful than stoicism.

Boru

I don't know about Stoicism in particular, but Buddhism does try to cultivate compassion for others just as much as internal mastery over the mind,  so that might perhaps be more agreeable to you on those terms, but I see what you're saying. I suppose it would be fair to say that my interest in these things tends to be in the self improvement sense - as psychological tools for dealing with life - more than as ethical theories... so I guess I'd say my interest in it (Buddhism or Stoicism) is selfish in the way you're meaning it. I don't really have any particular ethical theory that I adhere to beyond just trying to be empathetic.

[Jillybean]

I've actually studied Buddhism for years and Stoicism for half a year including daily readings of the ancient and modern Stoic philosophers, so I take issue with the idea that I'm just thoughtlessly parroting the views. Just because I haven't distilled the philosophy to something I can defend upon command in a paragraph hardly means I don't understand it.

Stoicism is not even remotely "selfish" and to say that simply shows me that you know little about it. It's about living your life with the virtues of Courage, Wisdom, Temperance and Justice. It's about living with a moral code, which obviously benefits others as well as yourself.

The bottom line is that it helps me tremendously - with my mental health, with my understanding of mortality and with my creativity (writing). I'm offering it to others who may find it beneficial but I'm certainly not pushing it on anyone or saying for instance that you will go to Hell for not subscribing to it.

Maybe some people here are too interested in simply tearing apart ANY idea as if it were solely an intellectual debate.

[Jillybean]

Could you explain more?  I'm not sure in what way you see it as selfish.

Because stoicism doesn’t take into account the value of other people, or the greater good. The ‘well-lived life’ is purely personal.

This is fine as far as it goes, I just don’t see how practicing virtue benefits anyone beyond the practitioner. Might as well be a hermit in a cave.

Boru

Wow. What a complete misinterpretation. But clearly your mind is made up so there is no point in any response.

[Jillybean]

[/quote]

I don't know about Stoicism in particular, but Buddhism does try to cultivate compassion for others just as much as internal mastery over the mind,  so that might perhaps be more agreeable to you on those terms, but I see what you're saying. I suppose it would be fair to say that my interest in these things tends to be in the self improvement sense - as psychological tools for dealing with life - more than as ethical theories... so I guess I'd say my interest in it (Buddhism or Stoicism) is selfish in the way you're meaning it. I don't really have any particular ethical theory that I adhere to beyond just trying to be empathetic.
[/quote]

Stoicism is actually extremely altruistic - the focus is on being moral yourself but not requiring or expecting that others meet the moral standards you set for yourself. That said, I find it most helpful in the way you mention, as self improvement and a psychological tool for dealing with life.

I agree that empathy and the "golden rule" of treating others how you would like to be treated is how I see the foundation for any interpersonal ethics.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Because stoicism doesn’t take into account the value of other people, or the greater good. The ‘well-lived life’ is purely personal.

This is fine as far as it goes, I just don’t see how practicing virtue benefits anyone beyond the practitioner. Might as well be a hermit in a cave.

Boru

Wow.  What a complete misinterpretation.  But clearly your mind is made up so there is no point in any response.

That was an unexpected response, but okay.

Boru

[Angrboda]

Maybe some people here are too interested in simply tearing apart ANY idea as if it were solely an intellectual debate.

You mean this isn't an intellectual debate?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Maybe some people here are too interested in simply tearing apart ANY idea as if it were solely an intellectual debate.

You mean this isn't an intellectual debate?

I hope not. I was expressing an opinion about stoicism and nearly got flayed alive for it. If this were an intellectual debate, certain people would engage and not simply shut down the discussion.

Boru

[Belacqua]

Stoicism is actually extremely altruistic - the focus is on being moral yourself but not requiring or expecting that others meet the moral standards you set for yourself.  That said, I find it most helpful in the way you mention, as self improvement and a psychological tool for dealing with life.  

I agree that empathy and the "golden rule" of treating others how you would like to be treated is how I see the foundation for any interpersonal ethics.

Yes, I agree that the goal of a life lived by Stoic principles will be very virtuous toward others. Living a selfish, cruel life would certainly violate Stoicism.

As I said, Stoics hold that there is a set of principles according to which the world works. The goal is to live in accordance with this set of principles. Since man is a social animal, and justice is a part of the Logos, a Stoic would certainly take account of justice and of the people around him, and refrain as far as humanly possible from harming anyone. And to the extent that everyone is lifted up by mutual aid, it is virtuous and reasonable to assist others. 

Plutarch, Cicero, Hierocles, Marcus Aurelius, Arius Didymus, and other Stoic writers discuss a universal cosmopolitanism. This extends our responsibility to others beyond our own family or polis to cover all of humanity. It may be different from what we modern people think of as compassion -- Stoics wouldn't necessarily "feel your pain." But they would acknowledge others' pain and feel a mutual responsibility. 

I think you've hit the nail on the head by pointing out that the focus is on being moral yourself. Personal virtue is the goal. But personal virtue absolutely excludes selfishness, greed, and cruelty. What may be misleading people is the very wise (I think) belief that we don't have control over other people -- only ourselves. So our duty is to make ourselves as virtuous as possible. Some people take it as a given that being virtuous means trying to change other people -- scolding them, judging them, telling them what you think of them. Stoics don't think that this is what makes you virtuous. 

So Stoicism is about working on oneself, but the goal is that all benefit when virtue is increased.

[Belacqua]

I agree that empathy and the "golden rule" of treating others how you would like to be treated is how I see the foundation for any interpersonal ethics.

Well, kind of. Maybe that's a rough and ready rule of thumb. 

But Stoics believe there is an immutable principle of how others ought to be treated, and it isn't determined by our preferences. Stoicism means bringing yourself in accord with this Logos whether you'd like to or not. 

Of course they argue that you'll be happier if you adhere to these eternal principles. What you think would make you happy may be mistaken, after all.

[Jillybean]

Maybe some people here are too interested in simply tearing apart ANY idea as if it were solely an intellectual debate.

You mean this isn't an intellectual debate?

No, I don't consider it to be SOLELY an intellectual debate - as I said, Stoicism has been helpful to my mental health, useful to my understanding of morality, and inspired me creatively. But perhaps "intellectual" is the wrong word because the one poster whose post I found offensive was clearly not operating from a place of logic or intellect.

His words were "I just don’t see how practising virtue benefits anyone beyond the practitioner. Might as well be a hermit in a cave."

What????

Because practising Stoic virtues like Justice and Courage have zero benefit to anyone beyond the practitioner, right??? It's not like courage and justice could benefit others, or society as a whole.

No worries. I have blocked that poster because in my experience it's useless to engage with someone who makes that kind of generalization.