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Freedom of Religion
RE: Freedom of Religion
Well, adjusting that price for inflation...

bada-bum tcha!
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Freedom of Religion
You mean inflation of witch ego?
Trying to update my sig ...
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RE: Freedom of Religion
(February 9, 2012 at 10:38 pm)Epimethean Wrote: You mean inflation of witch ego?

Witch ego is that?

Personally I wouldn't buy the secular universe. If I need to add leptons, quarks, and bosons, then all they must be selling is gravity and everyone knows that sucks.

Where am I supposed to come up with leptons, quarks, and bosons?

Pull them out of a rabbit's hat?

No, better not do that. They said right on the package "*No magic required".

I better run out to Wal-Mart and buy the leptons, quarks, and bosons using my secular credit card.

That's where the inflation part comes in when I get the bill and see the interest I guess.
Christian - A moron who believes that an all-benevolent God can simultaneously be a hateful jealous male-chauvinistic pig.
Wiccan - The epitome of cerebral evolution having mastered the magical powers of the universe and is in eternal harmony with the mind of God.
Atheist - An ill-defined term that means something different to everyone who uses it.
~~~~~
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Clearly Jesus (a fictitious character or otherwise) will forgive people if they merely know not what they do
For the Bible Tells us so!
Reply
RE: Freedom of Religion
(February 9, 2012 at 9:46 pm)Abracadabra Wrote:
(February 9, 2012 at 9:10 pm)Hitchslap Wrote:
(February 9, 2012 at 7:43 pm)Abracadabra Wrote: Hell's bells 'magic' is already proven. The universe exists.
If that's not the greatest magic show ever I don't know what is.


You're fractally wrong...Magic is proven huh? so tell me what scientific theory or law that's called...

Physics and Chemistry is what makes up the Universe. That's it.

And where did all that physics and chemistry come from?

A rabbit's hat?

No magic required huh?

Yeah right.


I'll refer you back to my comment about you being fractally wrong.

And you'd still have to explain how that magic works and how it came to be, you think you have some kind of answer here but you've opened up about 100 other questions. What you have here against the argument of Science is superfluous nonsense. Get over this fantasy you have with your pseudo-deist nonsense and your primitive magic beliefs.

Do you honestly think Scientists go into labs concluding, "well we dont know the answer yet...MUST BE MAGIC!!!!" lol
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RE: Freedom of Religion
(February 9, 2012 at 11:20 pm)Hitchslap Wrote: What you have here against the argument of Science is superfluous nonsense.

What argument of science are you talking about?
Where has science ever proclaimed that there cannot be a spiritual essence to reality?
I've been in the sciences all my life and I have never heard of any such scientific argument.

Quote:Do you honestly think Scientists go into labs concluding, "well we dont know the answer yet...MUST BE MAGIC!!!!" lol

Of course they don't. That's not what science is about.
Neither am I claiming that anyone should do that.
I'm not asking anyone to conclude that reality 'must be spiritual'.
All I do is reject the lies that atheists spread who claim that a spiritual essence of reality as been RULED OUT.

That my friend is utter bull shit.
It's a street myth that is gaining increasing popularity because it is being wrongfully supported by atheists that science has ruled out any possibility of a spiritual essence or foundation of reality.

The real truth is that science has no clue what the "Foundation" of reality might even remotely be.

That is indeed the TRUTH, my friend.

It's an OPEN QUESTION.

And that's all I'm saying. That's my only formal position.

Do I personally favor a spiritual explanation? Yes. But that's a totally different thing. That just my own personal leanings. I'm not asking anyone else to believe like me.

But don't tell me that a spiritual reality has been RULED OUT because that bull shit.
Christian - A moron who believes that an all-benevolent God can simultaneously be a hateful jealous male-chauvinistic pig.
Wiccan - The epitome of cerebral evolution having mastered the magical powers of the universe and is in eternal harmony with the mind of God.
Atheist - An ill-defined term that means something different to everyone who uses it.
~~~~~
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Clearly Jesus (a fictitious character or otherwise) will forgive people if they merely know not what they do
For the Bible Tells us so!
Reply
RE: Freedom of Religion
You might want to browse this link Abra..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

If you'd like to define, precisely, what spiritual is then we could see if the concept has indeed been addressed. It's likely that it has. If your definition for spiritual is simply "the unknown"...you're not exactly talking about the spirtual, and no, science has not ruled out "the unknown". Again, the concept of spirits and spirituality is not "the unknown" it is very, very well known. I could refer you to a literal mountain of information on the subject (not that it isn't extremely accessible without my help) The field is known as "social science", but I'm sure you're already aware of that.....

I don't know how my telephone works, does that mean that I should consider telephone elves as a possible explanation?

Also, atheists aren't "spreading lies", atheists who don't believe in spirits or the spiritual are asking you for evidence (which you have not provided), asking you for rational arguments (which you have not provided) or expressing skepticism (which you have not addressed) and mentioning that a wide range of spiritual explanations for this or that have been tested, and did not produce results (or produced results which led us to conclude that "spiritual" things are fairy tales). Atheism is about not believing in god, it just so happens that some atheists do not believe in spirits or "the spiritual" either, but that is an entirely separate issue.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Freedom of Religion
(February 10, 2012 at 2:11 am)Rhythm Wrote: If you'd like to define, precisely, what spiritual is then we could see if the concept has indeed been addressed.

I've tried to be as clear on that as I can possibly be in my posts.

I've stated, (in think several times) that my idea of "spirit" is along the lines proposed in Eastern Mysticism.
I will grant you that there are many different Eastern Mystical philosophies so that's not an crystal clear definition to be sure.
None the less, for posts on an Internet forum I think it should be sufficient to at least convey what I'm trying to get at.
I've described it as best I possibly can as follows:

1. There exists some sort of "cosmic mind" that underlies the fabric of the spacetime universe in which we live.
2. This mind does indeed have structure and information which I claim resides in an ocean of "quantum fields".
3. This ocean of quantum phenomena may very well be the "body of God".
4. It is my position (as well as the position of the Eastern Mystics) that this cosmic mind is the seat of all conscious experience.
5. It is also this mystical cosmic mind that gives rise to the entire fabric of spacetime (i.e. the physical universe)

So it is this mysterious, "Cosmic Mind" (or cosmic entity) that I am calling "spirit" and I say, "Tat t'vam asi", meaning "You are it".

That's my basic hypothesis of "spirit", and I call it "spirit" because the Eastern Mystics view it that way as well.
It's perfectly legitimate use of the term in this situation. I'm not trying to confuse the issue. I'm just using a term I believe fits.

Do I claim to fully understand precisely how this can work in detail? No, absolutely not.
Do I even claim to know that this must necessarily be the true nature of reality. No, I do not.
Do I ask anyone else to even believe this? No, I do not.

All I have ever suggested is that I personally believe that it's reasonable to be open-minded that this could be the truth of reality.

I'm personally agnostic about it myself. I have no clue what the hell's going on. I confess that openly.

The only thing I object to is atheists proclaiming to me that this philosophy has been "ruled out" by science.

I say hogwash.

That's my story, and um stick'in to it.

~~~
Christian - A moron who believes that an all-benevolent God can simultaneously be a hateful jealous male-chauvinistic pig.
Wiccan - The epitome of cerebral evolution having mastered the magical powers of the universe and is in eternal harmony with the mind of God.
Atheist - An ill-defined term that means something different to everyone who uses it.
~~~~~
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Clearly Jesus (a fictitious character or otherwise) will forgive people if they merely know not what they do
For the Bible Tells us so!
Reply
RE: Freedom of Religion
1. There exists some sort of "cosmic mind" that underlies the fabric of the spacetime universe in which we live.

Your evidence for this would be what? What exactly is a cosmic mind? If you cant be incredibly specific that's okay, but I want this concept to be more than just two words with nothing else attached if we're going to discuss it.

2. This mind does indeed have structure and information which I claim resides in an ocean of "quantum fields".

Can you elaborate upon this structure, this information. Perhaps elaborate upon why you feel that this mind even has structure to begin with, or information. What exactly about "quantum fields" makes you believe that this is a suitable location for this spirit (in other words, why is it hiding there instead of under my coffee mug, for example)

3. This ocean of quantum phenomena may very well be the "body of God".

What quantum phenomena specifically?

4. It is my position (as well as the position of the Eastern Mystics) that this cosmic mind is the seat of all conscious experience.

You base this position on what evidence? (Eastern Mystics are con men, as eastern tradition realized literally thousands of years ago btw, Cavarka is one of the oldest currents of eastern tradition, and is also the oldest concrete expression of atheism and materialism we have)

5. It is also this mystical cosmic mind that gives rise to the entire fabric of spacetime (i.e. the physical universe)

Gives rise or gave rise, and what exactly do you mean by this? Are you suggesting, for example, that it is this mind that gives rise to rain, and not evaporation and condensation?

As to whether or not this belief is perfectly reasonable. No, not based on what we've seen so far, which is equivocation and arguments from ignorance, both logical fallacies. Without any evidence presented how can we say that something is reasonable, to be reasonable one must establish and verify facts. Hopefully we can achieve this, cut the fallacies out of your arguments, and then see what we're left with and how well the remainder matches up to the claims you've made (as well as how well the claims match up to reality).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Freedom of Religion



My evidence for what? Evidence for a "cosmic mind"?

To begin with, I clearly don't have "testable" evidence.
I know enough about science that if I had "testable" evidence it would be a scientific question.
If I had a valid scientific testable hypothesis I'd propose it to the scientific community for testing.

Perhaps you meant to ask, "Why do I feel that these things are worthy of consideration"?
I can offer you answers to that question. But you may find them unsatisfying.
They are also deeply philosophical and not easy to explain in few words.
Plus I also have intuitive feelings about it, which may not be impressive for you, but they are for me.
Even scientists often pursue ideas based solely on "gut feelings" that they have about them.

To keep these posts as brief as possible, let me just say the following:

To begin with, I personally find this philosophy to be more compelling than the alternative secular idea.
The alternative secular explanation is that a brain made solely of leptons, quarks, and bosons can have an "experience".
In fact, the secular proposal is that an 'emergent property' of a biological brain is what is actually having an "experience".
Well, I don't know about you, but that's not a deeply satisfying explanation for me.
If leptons, quarks and bosons have no ability to "experience" anything, then why should an abstract notion of an
"emergent Property" of something made of leptons, quarks, and bosons, have any better chance of having an "experience".
In short, the secular explanation of consciousness, simply doesn't impress me as having a sound basis.
I personally find the mystical idea of some deeper cosmic entity to be more compelling.

So rather than pinning me up against the wall demanding that I give evidence for my views.
how about trying to convince me why I should accept the secular view that an abstract concept of an "emergent property"
from a biological computer made of lepton, quarks, and bosons, makes any more sense?

Good luck with that!

I'd personally say that we're at a totally undecidable impasse on that one.




Well, my reasons for believing that quantum fields must necessarily contain information comes directly from science.
I've studied Quantum Mechanics for much of my life, and I've read many books on it, and watched many lectures, etc.
The premise (and even demand) that these fields contain information is a strong scientific principle.
Only certain things pop out of certain fields. They necessarily must have "structure" beneath the physical level.
In they had no structure or information at that level, then they would behave totally randomly and unpredictably.
But they don't. Only certain types of particles pop into existence from certain types of quantum fields, etc.
So it's a scientific requirement actually, that these fields contain "information" that exists beneath the level we call "physical".

For me that's well established in physics.
If you aren't aware of this all I can suggest is that you learn more about.
I don't know what else to say beyond that.
I'm not about to try to give lectures on quantum physics in Internet posts.




Again, I'm not going to try to teach quantum physics here.
There are plenty of books and even good videos on the topic.
I'm totally happy with my knowledge of it enough to know that it makes at least enough (or even more sense)
to me than the idea of an "emergent property" of a brain having an experience.




I'll be the first to agree that a lot of people use Eastern Mysticism as a means of making money. There's no question about that.
But, again, I've studied these philosophies from many different perspectives, and I personally find many of these philosophical ideas
to be intriguing and have sound philosophical merit.

I can't point to any one thing and say "that's what convinced me". We're talking about whole lifetime of contemplating these ideas.
In fact, it was a myriad of different views and ideas associated with these philosophies that has convinced me that the idea is plausible.

And besides, I'm not trying to convince you to accept these ideas. That was never my intent ever.
I'm just saying that for someone else to tell me that these ideas have been "ruled out" is nonsense.

In fact, if you have to ask me so many questions, that only goes to show that you have nowhere near enough information to claim to have ruled out my views.




Gives rise! That I can answer passionately. It's a dynamic on-going thing.

And no, I'm not suggesting that this mind consciously baby-sits the fabric of spacetime.
Clearly there are many processes that are indeed on 'auto-pilot' if you like.
There's no question about that. In fact, evolution itself was an 'auto-pilot' type of thing.
I could try to explain how I see this working, but again, it would become an extremely lengthy explanation.

The shortest explanation I can give goes like this:

The universe is "designed" like a pair of dice.
Let's say, you're the "God". You've designed the dice. And you toss them.
What can come up? Do you know? Yes you do. You know precisely what will come up.
In the case of a pair dice you can only throw a 2, a 12, or some whole number in between.
You'll never toss a fraction, or even an irrational number for that matter.
You'll never toss a zero. You'll never toss a 13 or higher, etc.
You know precisely what will come up in terms of "possibilities"
Yet at the same time you have no clue precisely which of the possible numbers will come up on any given toss.

Think of the universe as dice that have extremely high numbers on their faces.
God knows what can come up and what can't come up (just like you'd know with a pair of simple dice)
But just like you, God doesn't know precisely what WILL come up exactly on any given throw.
God is tossing dice. And then experiencing what comes up through the POVs that evolve from that toss.

This is an extremely crude explanation, but it's crude for the sake of brevity.
It's a metaphor. An analogy. Not to be taken literally.

Clearly the spacetime universe in which we live, has it's own "rules" of evolution.
Those rules are in place, and precisely determined by the numbers on the dice.
This kind of "God" has no need to dynamical baby-sit the evolution of the universe.

Can this God change the behavior of the universe through a POV that has evolved within the universe?
Yes and no. That partly depends on how highly evolved that particularity POV has become.
And on how much God is focusing on that particular POV.
Again, these are crude metaphors, and analogies.
It would require books upon books to try to flesh this stuff out in detail.

I have very deep thoughts concerning every possible situation you can imagine.
So for me this philosophy is not only viable, but it's actually quite interesting to think about.
It forces you to consider things that you might not otherwise even think of.

Can I convince you of this philosophy?
Probably not. But that's not my goal.
I don't need to convince you.

All I'm doing is stating that you (nor anyone else) could rule it out.
And there is nothing in all of science that has yet ruled it out.

And that's my only claim.
That is the only foundation I need to justify being open-minded about it.
People who are trying to claim that I'm being silly considering such things
are either totally ignorant of what is truly possible or they lack imagination.
That's all I can say.
Christian - A moron who believes that an all-benevolent God can simultaneously be a hateful jealous male-chauvinistic pig.
Wiccan - The epitome of cerebral evolution having mastered the magical powers of the universe and is in eternal harmony with the mind of God.
Atheist - An ill-defined term that means something different to everyone who uses it.
~~~~~
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Clearly Jesus (a fictitious character or otherwise) will forgive people if they merely know not what they do
For the Bible Tells us so!
Reply
RE: Freedom of Religion
Great, a witch who believes in intelligent design. Double fail.
Trying to update my sig ...
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