Post number 1

[Welsh cake]

No,

Yes!

NO. You Christians set up all the different denominations, stop trying to escape the question with that 'God wills it' bollocks. Why can't you all stop arguing, resolve your conflicts and believe in the same creator?

No matter how Wrong we are we all unite under one principle.

You're not. You all have distinctive faiths from each other, hence the 35,000 denominations. United my arse. You're all a disorganised mess.

The same reason a good parent want their child to love them. The answer you seek is built in the relationships we foster with our children. With our spouces.

Your god concept is not my parent. He didn't adopt me. He doesn't keep in touch. He doesn't let me know he's there. He doesn't protect me should I get mugged or involved in an accident. There is no relationship between us. None. No god fathered me, unless you're implying my conception was a threesome, and subsequently piss my biological mother and father both right off, both of whom are theists by the way.

The question should be ask are we all made to be finite? or just the one who do not elect eternal life?

Genesis 3:19 "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Which is exactly the reason we have been given this life. To have the opportunity to decide for ourselves whether we wish to spend eternity with God. Can we love Him?

Apparently we can't, not when we speculate he's real and is currently hiding from us instead of interacting with us like any loving figure would, no.

When you are standing at your final judgment you will know for sure what you have decided in this life. and although you do not want to go to hell you know it is what you choose. there will be no doubt.

Its HELL THREAT TIME!

[Cyberman]

When you are standing at your final judgment you will know for sure what you have decided in this life. and although you do not want to go to hell you know it is what you choose. there will be no doubt.

Interesting variation on xtian cliché #40, with perhaps just a dash of #41 for added flavour.

[Drich]

You Christians set up all the different denominations, stop trying to escape the question with that 'God wills it' bollocks. Why can't you all stop arguing, resolve your conflicts and believe in the same creator?

Again Our Greatest Command is To Love Our Lord God with ALL of our Heart, Mind, Spirit, and Strength! Now because we are all different this love will look different from person to person, culture to culture, soceity to soceity. A person with Charasmatic gifts would not be full filling the Greatest command if he were forced to worship in a atmosphere designed for serious study and debate. Likewise the accidemic would not be able to worship God to the full fillment of our greatest command if he were made to worship God in the home of the Carasmatic. So God gave us the freedom to seperate ourselves to worship Him with All of our being, amongst like minded believers!

Now reread what i said about if God wanted us to all worship alike He would have given laws and commands like He gave the Jews. (they worshiped alike for this very reason)

You're not. You all have distinctive faiths from each other, hence the 35,000 denominations. United my arse. You're all a disorganised mess.

Paul spoke of this using a very simple analogy. We are One body with many parts:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+12&version=NKJV (Read the whole chapter)

Your god concept is not my parent. He didn't adopt me

No He created you.

He doesn't keep in touch.

When's the last time you called?

He doesn't let me know he's there.

Maybe you just don't see what He has done.

He doesn't protect me should I get mugged or involved in an accident.

What if a good mugging or a accident is what it took you to get past what you need to, to find God?

There is no relationship between us. None.

Who's desision was that?

No god fathered me.

And no God will, unless you Ask Seek and knock for that gift.

Apparently we can't, not when we speculate he's real and is currently hiding from us instead of interacting with us like any loving figure would, no.

He is only "hidden" from those who do not seek Him.

panic: Its HELL THREAT TIME!

Brother it is not a threat. If a man is driving on an uncomplete bridge sooner or later He will fall. If you tell this man of the impending fall are you threating him? or warning him of what he appearently does not see?

[Welsh cake]

Drich, since you refuse to answer my question with a legitimate answer you've proven to me that you're unwilling or unable to continue this debate and you are therefore, wasting my time.

The rest of your thoughts about magic man are a pretty poor effort at apologetics, and quite frankly, not worth anyone's time.

[Whateverist]

Its HELL THREAT TIME!

Totally cute .. just like their attempt to save us. You Christian boys just go on tossing God's salad and let us enjoy our time above ground the way we like. To each his own.

[Mister Agenda]

Again Our Greatest Command is To Love Our Lord God with ALL of our Heart, Mind, Spirit, and Strength! Now because we are all different this love will look different from person to person, culture to culture, soceity to soceity. A person with Charasmatic gifts would not be full filling the Greatest command if he were forced to worship in a atmosphere designed for serious study and debate. Likewise the accidemic would not be able to worship God to the full fillment of our greatest command if he were made to worship God in the home of the Carasmatic. So God gave us the freedom to seperate ourselves to worship Him with All of our being, amongst like minded believers!

So what about the ones that claim that those in other denominations are following a creed that leads to hell? The Pentecostals, for instance, seem pretty sure they've got salvation sewn up and anyone who believes differently is damned.

Now reread what i said about if God wanted us to all worship alike He would have given laws and commands like He gave the Jews. (they worshiped alike for this very reason)

Maybe God doesn't care if we worship him at all.

No He created you.

If so, does his responsibility stop there? It takes more than being responsible for someone's conception to be a parent.

When's the last time you called?

Yesterday. No answer. Just like always.

Maybe you just don't see what He has done.

That's because, if he exists, he doesn't show himself. If he wants to be invisible, it's not fair to blame people for not seeing him.

What if a good mugging or a accident is what it took you to get past what you need to, to find God?

I don't have to guess or have revelations to verify real things exist. My dad can call me on my cell and knows just what to say for me to believe it's really him. A feat beyond an omnipotent being who supposedly loves me more than my actual father does.

Who's desision was that?

I'll cop to this one. When I realized God is imaginary, I stopped pretending he is real. I'll be happy to come back if he'll just let me know he's real. No miracle needed, the right words from a particular person would do it.

And no God will, unless you Ask Seek and knock for that gift.

Been there, done that, doesn't change anything but my own take on things, which any religion at all can accomplish.

He is only "hidden" from those who do not seek Him.

Which would be fine except for the eternal hell thing. He hides from those who don't seek him and has them tortured for eternity for not seeking him. It's monstrous.

Brother it is not a threat. If a man is driving on an uncomplete bridge sooner or later He will fall. If you tell this man of the impending fall are you threating him? or warning him of what he appearently does not see?

Is it really a warning if you know we're already perfectly aware of it? Do you think reminding us of your deity's injustice will draw us to him? Justice is when you get what you deserve, in balance with your deeds. Infinite punishment (or infinite reward, in the case of heaven) for finite actions is the essence of injustice. Hell is a problem for Christians. I recommend that you jettison it along with objection to evolution.

[Drich]

So what about the ones that claim that those in other denominations are following a creed that leads to hell? The Pentecostals, for instance, seem pretty sure they've got salvation sewn up and anyone who believes differently is damned.

The command is to love God with all of your being. This means (for some) that if they Love God a certain way and you do it differently then you must be wrong by default.(This is the limit of their heart and mind, for them this is ok) Again the command is to love God with everything not love God only a certain way. This works for and against people who think they have a lock on religion.

However, there is one draw back to this type of theology. It is that if you think you have it sewn up like that you will be judged to the strictest interpretation of your beliefs. So someone like that better walk the talk.

Maybe God doesn't care if we worship him at all.

He sure went through alot of trouble not to care.

If so, does his responsibility stop there? It takes more than being responsible for someone's conception to be a parent.

Like what?

Yesterday. No answer. Just like always.

What number did you use?

That's because, if he exists, he doesn't show himself.

That is funny because i do not have this problem. Nor does anyone else who follows the prescribed path.

If he wants to be invisible, it's not fair to blame people for not seeing him.

Maybe you just do not know what to look for. Matter of fact I can say none of us do unless we have help. Only those who ask seek and knock receive this help.

I don't have to guess or have revelations to verify real things exist.

Perhaps you do not understand the term. Revelation simply means an understanding you have been given. You need to be given understanding of everything in the world around you. for instance:

My dad can call me on my cell and knows just what to say for me to believe it's really him.

Before you knew how to work a cell phone or knew they made phones with out cords your dad could call and if you did not know or if it not have been revealed how to use your phone you would not get what you are looking for from him.

Which would lead to comments like this about your own father:

A feat beyond an omnipotent being who supposedly loves me more than my actual father does.

you have to first learn how to contact God before you can hear from Him.

I'll cop to this one. When I realized God is imaginary, I stopped pretending he is real. I'll be happy to come back if he'll just let me know he's real. No miracle needed, the right words from a particular person would do it.

So you would hold you faith Hostage from God and if He did magic tricks for you then you would believe in a great magician?

what if God did not want you to believe in a great magician? What if He demanded that you approach Him like He has commanded all other people for some reason? Why would He have anything to say to you till you complied?

If the most important/powerful man in your country wanted to speak with you but would only do so in a very specific protocol would you demand that he see you on your terms? What if you knew He wanted to give you a priceless gift? Would you demand that he perform magic tricks for you?
I am going to assume you said no, so that makes me ask why would you demand this from the Almighty God?

Been there, done that, doesn't change anything but my own take on things, which any religion at all can accomplish.

Actually you haven't. The Ask Seek and knock of Luke 11 does not have an expiration date. This means you may be required to ask seek and knock the rest of your life. Usually though it is just past the time limit you placed on your efforts.
This means if you "been there done that" you would have what you seek.
You might have been there and tried that but know you fail on your first try. Ask for help on your second.

Which would be fine except for the eternal hell thing. He hides from those who don't seek him and has them tortured for eternity for not seeking him. It's monstrous.

Only to those going to hell.
Asking and seeking is not a hard thing to do unless one's pride will not allow it. Even if have no desire to ask and seek you can ask for this desire to be given to you. There is no reason anyone could have for not doing this, because it is done for you if you just get the ball rolling.

Is it really a warning if you know we're already perfectly aware of it? Do you think reminding us of your deity's injustice will draw us to him?

Hell was not the carrot or the stick here. What was being demonstrated is the righteousness of your final judgment. The focus was on the fact that you will know why and what you will have been found guilty of and there will not be any doubt when you receive your sentence. Hell again was not the focus of the discussion it is the righteousness and final judgment you will acknowledge from God.
(this means by your own admission on that day you will know justice will have been done.)
[/quote]

Justice is when you get what you deserve, in balance with your deeds.

Do you think that the Nazi's considered themselves to be "bad people?" or perhaps do you think that they justified what they did for the greater good of the German people?

Infinite punishment (or infinite reward, in the case of heaven) for finite actions is the essence of injustice. Hell is a problem for Christians. I recommend that you jettison it along with objection to evolution.

i guess you have not been apart of my evolution discussion.

As far as getting rid of the idea of hell that is more God's call than my own.

[Mister Agenda]

He sure went through alot of trouble not to care.

You mean, why would he go to the trouble of creating us if not to suck up to him? If there is a God, I hope it's better than that. And I'm not sure 'went through alot of trouble' is a concept that can be applied to an omnipotent being. Of course, it makes sense for a God that took days to create everything and needed rest after. That's a more believable God anyway, do you believe in the God described in Genesis or the omnipotent one?

Like what?

Parenting.

What number did you use?

You mean he can't hear me unless I use the right number?

That is funny because i do not have this problem. Nor does anyone else who follows the prescribed path.

That is funny, because I note that no one who believes in any god has that problem, they all get the god they're dialing when they follow their prescribed path. It's almost like once you believe something is real and you can communicate with it telepathically, it's easy to believe you really are communicating with it telepathically.

Maybe you just do not know what to look for. Matter of fact I can say none of us do unless we have help. Only those who ask seek and knock receive this help.

The reason skeptics don't believe unsupported claims is because we do know what to look for.

Before you knew how to work a cell phone or knew they made phones with out cords your dad could call and if you did not know or if it not have been revealed how to use your phone you would not get what you are looking for from him.

What? It doesn't matter how my father communicates, if it's intelligible he can verify that it's him, because he knows me and knows what to say to convince me it's really him.

Which would lead to comments like this about your own father:

A feat beyond an omnipotent being who supposedly loves me more than my actual father does.

you have to first learn how to contact God before you can hear from Him.

God can't talk to me unless I use the special code? He doesn't know that if he's real, I want to know it? Or he just withholds confirmation until after I convince myself he's real? Funny how that works. I bet I could get confirmation that just about any being that communicates with me inside my own head is doing so once I've convinced myself it's real.

So you would hold you faith Hostage from God and if He did magic tricks for you then you would believe in a great magician?

I require evidence proportionate to the claim to believe it. Otherwise I could believe absolutely anything, and that's no way to go through life. I believe there are great magicians and i believe their tricks are tricks. I expect an omniscient and omnipotent being to know what would convince me, and I expect if it loves me it would not send me to hell if it could prevent it by just letting me know it really exists.

what if God did not want you to believe in a great magician? What if He demanded that you approach Him like He has commanded all other people for some reason? Why would He have anything to say to you till you complied?

Ask Paul.

If the most important/powerful man in your country wanted to speak with you but would only do so in a very specific protocol would you demand that he see you on your terms? What if you knew He wanted to give you a priceless gift? Would you demand that he perform magic tricks for you?

The most powerful man in the country starts by clearly existing. If I told you a man named Bob Harley is really the most powerful man in the country and has a priceless gift for you, and if you go to Allendale SC next Tuesday, I'll introduce you and you'll get the gift, would you do it? Or would you expect some evidence this Harley guy really exists and really has a priceless gift for you?

I am going to assume you said no, so that makes me ask why would you demand this from the Almighty God?

Out of sentiment for my upbringing, I suppose, I am asking for much less evidence for the existence of God than it would take to get me to believe the most powerful man in the country has a gift for me.

Actually you haven't. The Ask Seek and knock of Luke 11 does not have an expiration date. This means you may be required to ask seek and knock the rest of your life. Usually though it is just past the time limit you placed on your efforts.
This means if you "been there done that" you would have what you seek.
You might have been there and tried that but know you fail on your first try. Ask for help on your second.

What I found is that you can believe anything if you try hard enough.

Only to those going to hell.

What a contemptible sentiment. Have you no compassion?

Asking and seeking is not a hard thing to do unless one's pride will not allow it. Even if have no desire to ask and seek you can ask for this desire to be given to you. There is no reason anyone could have for not doing this, because it is done for you if you just get the ball rolling.

The reason is that I prefer not to believe things that are not true, and you're giving a recipe that can be used to believe anything, true or not. Shouldn't your God have a contact method distinguishable from Vishnu's?

Hell was not the carrot or the stick here. What was being demonstrated is the righteousness of your final judgment. The focus was on the fact that you will know why and what you will have been found guilty of and there will not be any doubt when you receive your sentence. Hell again was not the focus of the discussion it is the righteousness and final judgment you will acknowledge from God.
(this means by your own admission on that day you will know justice will have been done.)

Infinite punishment for finite crimes cannot be justice.

Do you think that the Nazi's considered themselves to be "bad people?" or perhaps do you think that they justified what they did for the greater good of the German people?

It's a non-sequitur, but I'll play along. Sure the Nazis didn't think they were being evil. Everyone thinks they're justified in what they do. It doesn't mean they are. Still doesn't mean that torturing them for eternity, infinitely longer than the lifespan of suns, is justice.

i guess you have not been apart of my evolution discussion.

You guess wrong. You have found a way to make Genesis compatible with evolution. It's ad hoc, but it's better than pretending the science supporting evolution is false. You can do the same with hell. Universalists don't believe in eternal damnation and can use the Bible to support their view. You could too, and you'd be a better human for it.

As far as getting rid of the idea of hell that is more God's call than my own.

You are responsible for your own ideas and for your own interpretation of scripture. Even if you follow someone else's interpretation, the decision to do so is yours. You've added to Genesis based on your own interpretation. The decision to believe in eternal damnation is on you, whether or not God is real. Perhaps you should consider studying Universalism before making your final decision about hell.

[Drich]

[quote='Mister Agenda' pid='263253' dateline='1333038821']
[quote]You mean, why would he go to the trouble of creating us if not to suck up to him? If there is a God, I hope it's better than that. And I'm not sure 'went through alot of trouble' is a concept that can be applied to an omnipotent being. Of course, it makes sense for a God that took days to create everything and needed rest after. That's a more believable God anyway, do you believe in the God described in Genesis or the omnipotent one?[/quote]
No what i am saying that if God did not care then why did he sacrifice his son on your behalf?

[quote]Parenting.[/quote]
how so?

[quote]You mean he can't hear me unless I use the right number?[/quote]Something like that.You can't hear Him unless the right number is dialed.

[quote]That is funny, because I note that no one who believes in any god has that problem, they all get the god they're dialing when they follow their prescribed path.[/quote]Not true i work with many people of the christian faith and many others who do not "feel" their god.

[quote] It's almost like once you believe something is real and you can communicate with it telepathically, it's easy to believe you really are communicating with it telepathically. [/quote]It is not as easy (if as you suggest you go it alone)as you need it to be to sustain your belief of Christianity.

[quote]The reason skeptics don't believe unsupported claims is because we do know what to look for. [/quote]Maybe you are looking for the wrong things.

[quote]What? It doesn't matter how my father communicates, if it's intelligible he can verify that it's him, because he knows me and knows what to say to convince me it's really him. [/quote]If you don't know to pick up the phone then nothing your father says will matter.


[quote]God can't talk to me unless I use the special code? [/quote] The "code" is not for Him, it is for you. Unless you humble yourself and use the code you will not know have what you need to understand what is being said.

[quote]He doesn't know that if he's real, I want to know it? [/quote]Yes He does, that is why He has provided answers for ALL who ask, seek and knock.

[quote]Or he just withholds confirmation until after I convince myself he's real? [/quote]You do not have to convince yourself of anything. Just have enough "faith" to start the process. He will fill in the blanks.

[quote]Funny how that works. I bet I could get confirmation that just about any being that communicates with me inside my own head is doing so once I've convinced myself it's real. [/quote]
That is a convenient observation from one who has never followed the path.

[quote]I require evidence proportionate to the claim to believe it.[/quote]Then Ask, Seek, and knock for what you want.

[quote]Otherwise I could believe absolutely anything, and that's no way to go through life. I believe there are great magicians and i believe their tricks are tricks. I expect an omniscient and omnipotent being to know what would convince me,[/quote]And He expects you to bend a knee like everyone else.

[quote]and I expect if it loves me it would not send me to hell if it could prevent it by just letting me know it really exists. [/quote]This is a lie of Satan. God's leading attribute is not a universal hippy love for everyone. It is righteousness. The Same righteousness that placed His Son on a cross for sin, will also see all of the unrepentant/Proud in Hell.


[quote]Ask Paul. [/quote]Are you Paul? Not to mention Everything Paul did was done in the Name of God. The only God he knew. God saw his heart and changed what needed to be changed to put him on the right path.
What do you do in the Name of God?
Where is your heart?
They why would God come to you?

[quote]The most powerful man in the country starts by clearly existing. If I told you a man named Bob Harley is really the most powerful man in the country and has a priceless gift for you, and if you go to Allendale SC next Tuesday, I'll introduce you and you'll get the gift, would you do it? Or would you expect some evidence this Harley guy really exists and really has a priceless gift for you? [/quote]I would Defiantly do my due diligence, before dismissing his offer.
What have you personally done to dismiss the claims of God?

[quote]Out of sentiment for my upbringing, I suppose, I am asking for much less evidence for the existence of God than it would take to get me to believe the most powerful man in the country has a gift for me. [/quote]Then simply ask seek and knock as outlined in Luke 11 and you will have what you are looking for.

[quote]What a contemptible sentiment. Have you no compassion? [/quote]Do you have compassion for those going to Heaven? Why not? Because they chose to goto Heaven right? The same is true about those going to Hell. If you are going you chose to go, to Hell then why is compassion needed? It was your Choice.

Those who do not want to spend eternity with God have the option not to spend an eternity with God.

[quote]The reason is that I prefer not to believe things that are not true, and you're giving a recipe that can be used to believe anything, true or not. Shouldn't your God have a contact method distinguishable from Vishnu's?[/quote]Please show in Hindu text where a similar path is set before the new believer.

[quote]Infinite punishment for finite crimes cannot be justice. [/quote]
Then view it as a consequence of your life's choices.

[quote]It's a non-sequitur, but I'll play along. Sure the Nazis didn't think they were being evil. Everyone thinks they're justified in what they do. It doesn't mean they are. Still doesn't mean that torturing them for eternity, infinitely longer than the lifespan of suns, is justice.[/quote] again not punishment. the result of your life's decision. Either you want to be with God for eternity or you do not.
God simply holds you to the choice you make.

[quote]You can do the same with hell. Universalism's don't believe in eternal damnation and can use the Bible to support their view. You could too, and you'd be a better human for it. [/quote]
Lol, I am only representing what is in scripture. Whether or not I am better for it in the eyes of my peers is of no consequence to me what so ever.

Hell is hell and there is an eternity of it waiting for all who choose it.

[quote]You are responsible for your own ideas and for your own interpretation of scripture.[/quote]My sole responsibility is to represent scripture with all the gifts God has seen fit to give me.

[quote]Even if you follow someone else's interpretation, the decision to do so is yours. You've added to Genesis based on your own interpretation. The decision to believe in eternal damnation is on you, whether or not God is real. Perhaps you should consider studying Universalism before making your final decision about hell. [/quote]Just because I do not support universalism does not mean I have not studied it. I answer to God not to those who support universalism or want to feel good about the eternal decision they have made. Therefore my "answers" reflect the God of the bible in whom I serve.

[Mister Agenda]

No what i am saying that if God did not care then why did he sacrifice his son on your behalf?

Is God's son dead? If so, I am sorry for his loss. If his son is alive, it's not that impressive a sacrifice.

how so?

The reply 'Parenting' was in response to this question of yours: 'Like what?'; which was in response to this statement of mine: 'It takes more than being responsible for someone's conception to be a parent.' The essence of being a loving parent is to be present and guide your children as best you can so they can become the best adults they can be. Most real parents do so without the advantages of omnipotence and omniscience.

Something like that.You can't hear Him unless the right number is dialed.

Given the premise of an omnipotent God, I can hear anything it wants me to hear.

Not true i work with many people of the christian faith and many others who do not "feel" their god.

So they don't have the right number?

It is not as easy (if as you suggest you go it alone)as you need it to be to sustain your belief of Christianity.

Oh, I agree, it is far from easy for most people to convince themselves they can communicate with a spirit.

Maybe you are looking for the wrong things.

Could be. Faith however, always leads wherever the proponent says, and different proponents take you different places, while claiming there's only one place. That pretty much rules it out as a useful tool for finding truth.

If you don't know to pick up the phone then nothing your father says will matter.

If I never pick up the phone he will come looking for me. That's what a loving father does. And if God is my loving father, he can't fail to find me if he looks.

The "code" is not for Him, it is for you. Unless you humble yourself and use the code you will not know have what you need to understand what is being said.

If there is a God, I don't think my attitude can prevent it from communicating with me if it wants to. If he's real, I'll be plenty humble once I know that. Again, I could humble myself before any deity at all to get the same results. Why is it too much to ask for evidence that would support God that can't also be used to support Brahma or Buddha?

Yes He does, that is why He has provided answers for ALL who ask, seek and knock.

Just like every other god.

You do not have to convince yourself of anything. Just have enough "faith" to start the process. He will fill in the blanks.

Um, that's HOW you start convincing yourself of something.

That is a convenient observation from one who has never followed the path.

Yeah, criteria suck when you're trying to get someone to 'try your path' instead of trying the hundreds of other paths people are trying to sell.

Then Ask, Seek, and knock for what you want.

God? This is Mister Agenda. I really want to know if you exist, but I need something more than religious people telling me they've found the right path and I have to have faith that they know what they're talking about. All I ask is that you provide a sign that I will find convincing. I believe that if you really exist, you are powerful and wise enough to do this. It doesn't have to be anything that anyone else would find convincing. Before I die would be appreciated.

And He expects you to bend a knee like everyone else.

I don't kneel before the imaginary. No reasonable God would expect or respect someone who kneels without thinking he's real.

This is a lie of Satan. God's leading attribute is not a universal hippy love for everyone. It is righteousness. The Same righteousness that placed His Son on a cross for sin, will also see all of the unrepentant/Proud in Hell.

It's not righteousness to punish an innocent for the sins of others.

Are you Paul?

Nope. Non sequitur much? I'll assume you're claiming that Paul was worthy of a personal revelation while I am not.

Not to mention Everything Paul did was done in the Name of God.

Too bad God didn't reveal his true intentions to more people persecuting others in his name.

The only God he knew. God saw his heart and changed what needed to be changed to put him on the right path.

Exactly.

What do you do in the Name of God?

Nothing, unlike priests telling Africans that condoms spread AIDS or Pentecostal missionaries telling Africans that homosexuality is a crime.

Where is your heart?

Where it belongs.

They why would God come to you?

He shouldn't, unless he's real and he loves me.

I would Defiantly do my due diligence, before dismissing his offer.
What have you personally done to dismiss the claims of God?

I don't know that God has made any claims at all. All reports of God's claims come through people, like yourself. People aren't God, and even with the best of intentions, can be wrong. It's YOUR claims about God that I'm asking you to support.

Then simply ask seek and knock as outlined in Luke 11 and you will have what you are looking for.

I know how this goes: if I do and I don't, then I didn't do it right.

Do you have compassion for those going to Heaven?

Of course not.

Why not?

Because they aren't suffering.

Because they chose to goto Heaven right?

There's no credit in betting on the right God, it's nothing but luck. If the criteria for getting in heaven was deeds, not creeds, they would deserve praise, but all they did was happen to follow the right religion.

The same is true about those going to Hell. If you are going you chose to go, to Hell then why is compassion needed? It was your Choice.

This is just what Christians tell themselves so they can sleep at night while believing in a God who tortures people forever for believing in the wrong God or not believing in any. It's a stupid claim, if I knew hell was real, of course I would not choose it. I would crawl like a worm before your terrifying deity and tell myself to love it until it became my truth in order to avoid the tortures of the damned. Of course, any sane person would worship a deity if they knew that was waiting for them if they didn't. Any deity at all. Kali, Baal, Yahweh; good thing for us you think it's Yahweh's hell instead of Baal's, else you'd be sacrificing babies...and who could blame you? Why would you choose eternal torment when you can save yourself by sacrificing a few babies? It was your Choice.

Those who do not want to spend eternity with God have the option not to spend an eternity with God.

Hey, I'll spend eternity with any God ya want to avoid eternal torture. There's no one I wouldn't throw under the bus to avoid still having an eternity of torture to look forward to after the last star has died. By then I will have suffered more than all the people who have ever lived combined suffered in life. Any chance I get to know for sure what's true before I have to make a choice?

Please show in Hindu text where a similar path is set before the new believer.

http://www.krishna.com › About Krishna › The Reading Room

Then view it as a consequence of your life's choices.

That doesn't make it just. Only an insane person would knowingly choose hell, and no just person would allow them to suffer for it. Let's not go into the 'justice' of people unknowingly choosing hell.

again not punishment. the result of your life's decision. Either you want to be with God for eternity or you do not.
God simply holds you to the choice you make.

If I believed God existed I would want to be with him for eternity if the alternative was hell. Although I'm not positive I could stand heaven for eternity either. You guys do a much better job of selling hell as a place to avoid than heaven as a place you'd want to spend eternity in. Of couse, if Islam is the true path, you've no complaints if Allah simply holds you to the choice you made, eh?

Lol, I am only representing what is in scripture. Whether or not I am better for it in the eyes of my peers is of no consequence to me what so ever.

So you're not even going to try to investigate whether Universalism has scriptural support. That's on you.

Hell is hell and there is an eternity of it waiting for all who choose it.

As you people never tire of telling us, and with such relish, too!

My sole responsibility is to represent scripture with all the gifts God has seen fit to give me.

As long as you're doing your best, that's what matters.

Just because I do not support universalism does not mean I have not studied it. I answer to God not to those who support universalism or want to feel good about the eternal decision they have made. Therefore my "answers" reflect the God of the bible in whom I serve.

My own position is that both positions ae about equally supported, scripturally, but I'm no biblical scholar, and I don't have a dog in the race. Frankly, taking the long view, Christians pushing hell is one of atheism's best selling points in majority Christian countries, so it's about six of one and half-a-dozen of the other to me: the passive-aggressive 'it's not me that wants you in hell, I just think you deserve it, but why are you irritated at ME for?' Christian may be worth putting up with for the numbers of fence-sitters that they put off Christianity.