Post number 1

[Whateverist]

again not punishment. the result of your life's decision. Either you want to be with God for eternity or you do not.
God simply holds you to the choice you make.

If I believed God existed I would want to be with him for eternity if the alternative was hell. Although I'm not positive I could stand heaven for eternity either. You guys do a much better job of selling hell as a place to avoid than heaven as a place you'd want to spend eternity in. Of couse, if Islam is the true path, you've no complaints if Allah simply holds you to the choice you made, eh?

Lol, I am only representing what is in scripture. Whether or not I am better for it in the eyes of my peers is of no consequence to me what so ever.

So you're not even going to try to investigate whether Universalism has scriptural support. That's on you.

Mr. Agenda, you are my favorite good guy. You never seem to tire of pointing out the ilogic and unfairness in these guy's stances. And you do it without ever raising your voice above a zinger. I fear most of your posts are so thorough and therefore long that most of us miss some very quotable zingers. I always hope they will have enough redeeming virtue to make it worth my time to try to help them out. You are very generous.

[Norfolk And Chance]

What is the direct dial number for god drich? You claim to have the right number, let us know and we can settle this once and for all.

[Mister Agenda]

Thanks. It's some work, and it's good to know some of you guys are willing to slog through the long posts.

These folks (with the exception of the trolls) are doing their best with what they've got. I can see how a different turn here or there (like marrying a Pentecostal girl right out of High School) might have landed me on Drich's side. I'm glad I had the opportunity to think my way out of fundamentalism, but I know I was fortunate. I know I'm not (in principle) any better or smarter than them, just luckier, so it's easy for me to empathize.

I don't expect to change the mind of the person I'm responsing to about anything. I might sway a member of the lurking audience, or maybe plant a seed that might start to grow years down the road. And I imagine Drich feels pretty much the same way. We can't expect people to walk in and crumble before our mighty logic, becoming skeptical is a process that can take years (at least it did in my case).

[Drich]

If I believed God existed I would want to be with him for eternity if the alternative was hell. Although I'm not positive I could stand heaven for eternity either. You guys do a much better job of selling hell as a place to avoid than heaven as a place you'd want to spend eternity in. Of couse, if Islam is the true path, you've no complaints if Allah simply holds you to the choice you made, eh?

If God of the Bible is not the God of Heaven then I have no desire to go.

Why? Because Heaven has nothing to do with living in a Gated community with Gold streets and everyone gets a mansion. Heaven is being with God no matter what that may look like. Meaning the focus is on God not on your surroundings or what God can do for you.

I asked this question to illustrate a the point.
If for some reason the descriptions of Heaven and Hell were somehow confused in the past and Heaven was a fiery pit (but God lived there) and Hell was what we think to be paradise (but no God) would you want to still goto Heaven (The fiery pit?)

Heaven is where God is not matter what that might look like. the reason I want to goto Heaven is to be with God, not because of what He has to offer. So again if the God of the Bible is not the god of Heaven then I will be content in having my fate be the same as everyone else who chooses not to goto Heaven. Again no compassion necessary.

---

[quote='Norfolk And Chance' pid='266544' dateline='1333392610']
What is the direct dial number for god drich? You claim to have the right number, let us know and we can settle this once and for all.

The Same as everyone else.

It can be found in luke 11

[Drich]

Is God's son dead? If so, I am sorry for his loss. If his son is alive, it's not that impressive a sacrifice.

Why do you believe the sum total of the sacrifice God gave resulted in His son's death?

[The reply 'Parenting' was in response to this question of yours: 'Like what?'; which was in response to this statement of mine: 'It takes more than being responsible for someone's conception to be a parent.' The essence of being a loving parent is to be present and guide your children as best you can so they can become the best adults they can be. Most real parents do so without the advantages of omnipotence and omniscience.

So because God is not a parent as you would be a parent then He can not be your God? What if you grew up in a different culture? Would your standard parenting still be based in the western culture or would you demand God parent as you would parent in your new culture? When does worship of God stop being about you?

Given the premise of an omnipotent God, I can hear anything it wants me to hear.

Until you dial the right number you indeed hear what He wants to to hear.. Absolutely nothing. and you will continue to hear nothing till you sub mit yourself as He has commanded every other living soul.

So they don't have the right number?

No. They tend to dial the religious efforts prescribed their tradition of Choice.

Oh, I agree, it is far from easy for most people to convince themselves they can communicate with a spirit.

It's really easy to discern if one does or does not have a Spiritual gift. Test the gift as given (as not all can communicate)

Could be. Faith however, always leads wherever the proponent says, and different proponents take you different places, while claiming there's only one place.

Then why seek a proponent? Why not open your own bible and seek God for yourself?

That pretty much rules it out as a useful tool for finding truth.

Again only if you need someone to think for you.

If I never pick up the phone he will come looking for me. That's what a loving father does.

Growing up in the west I am sure you think the rest of the world's fathers think as you do. And you probably think if they do not think as you do, they are wrong in some way. When/if you decide to look past your comfortable life style to the rest of the world you will note quickly that you and your standards of parenting are in the minority. Meaning that not all have adopted the proud child philosophy where the parents are to serve the children. The rest of the world has their children obeying their parents, learning from them and working with them to strengthen the family.

And if God is my loving father, he can't fail to find me if he looks.

Like wise if you are a loving child you will return home to your father..

If there is a God, I don't think my attitude can prevent it from communicating with me if it wants to.

Again unless you humble yourself what in creation makes you think He wants to?

If he's real, I'll be plenty humble once I know that.

You do not understand the term. Humility only in the sight of the master is false humility. Genuine humility permeates the individual no matter what the situation. If you were a humble man you would be a humble man in or out of the presents of God. If you are a humble man only in the site of God then know you are simply submissive to the authority and power of God.. The difference? Humble means you give of your heart. Submissive is a showing of fear. While fear is the beginning of the knowledge of God Love is the completion of it.

Just like every other god.

Show Me The Religious Text Of Every Other God that Offers what The God Of The Bible Offers.
Or is this just ANOTHER empty retort?

Um, that's HOW you start convincing yourself of something.

You miss the point. You do not have to Convince yourself of anything (meaning complete the task) God promises to complete this task Himself.
Meaning again you will not have done anything except follow where the evidence leads

God? This is Mister Agenda. I really want to know if you exist, but I need something more than religious people telling me they've found the right path and I have to have faith that they know what they're talking about. All I ask is that you provide a sign that I will find convincing.

What if God does not want you to worship a signs and wonders magician you have just made him out to be? wouldn't this be counterproductive if He were to answer your request the way you just framed it?

I believe that if you really exist, you are powerful and wise enough to do this. It doesn't have to be anything that anyone else would find convincing. Before I die would be appreciated.

What if this meant your life or the life of someone you love? would you still pray this prayer?

I prayed this prayer with the attitude "no matter the cost" and I got what i prayed for. I was diagnosed with over 200 skin lesions due to a viral infection that people with healthy immune systems can easily fight off. This lead the doctors to suspect that i had HIV. They did a test and two weeks later confirmed the initial diagnosis, upon which I was given another test to confirm. I prayed for my life initially then found a great peace. It wasn't until I humbled myself that I did find what I was looking for. Not in a church not in a religious denomination, but in God. the doctor had me return for my second test results and another round of treatment for my lesions. Where upon I was tested negative for HIV. Again another blood sample was taken and a revisit scheduled. When I returned the remaining lesions had healed themselves. I still have over 100 small scars where the lesions were treated to remind me of my answered prayer. (even still this was not enough for me to completely change, but it was enough to break my hard heart, and point me in the right direction.)

If you want to know God then offer all that you have to give. Give Him what is most valuable in your life. Money, job, life whatever you will not put a price on, offer all of it. Know you may not get it back but you will have your "proof" before you die. (you just don't know how soon that will be)

Just want you to know what you are asking for in the "prayer" you offered. Now all you have to do is seek in the bible, in church, and with people like me (willing to study with you) and knock by repeating this process till you get what you want.

I don't kneel before the imaginary. No reasonable God would expect or respect someone who kneels without thinking he's real.

It a metaphor for humbling yourself to the point of asking for help to get what you need to eventually physically kneel.

It's not righteousness to punish an innocent for the sins of others.

Is it righteousness to throw yourself on a grenade for those you love?

Nope. Non sequitur much? I'll assume you're claiming that Paul was worthy of a personal revelation while I am not.

You do not have to assume anything. i explained in detail what i meant.

Too bad God didn't reveal his true intentions to more people persecuting others in his name.

How do you know that He didn't?
Perhaps Paul was the only one with the means and ability to write it all down.

Nothing, unlike priests telling Africans that condoms spread AIDS or Pentecostal missionaries telling Africans that homosexuality is a crime.

How many times have you been to Africa, and what have you told them? Matter of fact how many times have you been to you local inner city and helped the homeless, the addicts, the working poor, the worthless poor? how many times have you reach out and made an effective change in just one persons life?

It is alot easier to judge what you hear goes on in Africa from the comfort of your ipad than actually getting up and out to effect change in your own community.
When I see what other people "hear" it carries little meaning till i hear what they have done.

He shouldn't, unless he's real and he loves me.

Again God does not subscribe to the popular western philosophy of love. Love is well defined in scripture in the four Greek words that represent what God means specifically.
Agape, Eros, Phili, Storge. God calls for Agape and pop culture condenses all forms of love down to somewhere between Phili and Eros. So when you say, "Unless He loves me" do you even know How God loves His Children? If no then how would you know you are not experiencing it now?

I don't know that God has made any claims at all. All reports of God's claims come through people, like yourself.

Then pick up your bible and Read His words for yourself.

I know how this goes: if I do and I don't, then I didn't do it right.

Apparently you do not know how this goes. This is a promise of God. If God full fills the promise then you have your proof. If He does not then again you have your proof. The only catch is you have to do what the scripture says completely.
Which is Ask, Seek, and knock as the man did in the parable.
(Read the story before you make a foolish comment)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=TNIV

Because they aren't suffering.

wouldn't those who spent their entire lives putting distance between themselves and God suffer equally if God dragged them kicking and screaming into heaven?
You should know better than anyone not everyone wants to goto Heaven.

There's no credit in betting on the right God, it's nothing but luck. If the criteria for getting in heaven was deeds, not creeds, they would deserve praise, but all they did was happen to follow the right religion.

What if I told you no religions lead directly to Heaven?

This is just what Christians tell themselves so they can sleep at night while believing in a God who tortures people forever for believing in the wrong God or not believing in any.

I honestly do not need to justify anything God does. I am not a shrinking violet who grew up in the church and has confused God's righteousness with my own or that of the culture i live in. The Lord Gives and the Lord takes away blessed be the name of the Lord.

It's a stupid claim, if I knew hell was real, of course I would not choose it. I would crawl like a worm before your terrifying deity and tell myself to love it until it became my truth in order to avoid the tortures of the damned.

Do you know of the 1000 reign of Christ in Revelations? I guess 1000 years is enough time to weed out people with this on their hearts.. (death bed converts)

Of course, any sane person would worship a deity if they knew that was waiting for them if they didn't. Any deity at all. Kali, Baal, Yahweh; good thing for us you think it's Yahweh's hell instead of Baal's, else you'd be sacrificing babies...and who could blame you? Why would you choose eternal torment when you can save yourself by sacrificing a few babies? It was your Choice.

i have chose God of the bible or Hell. There is nothing else for me, and will not accept anything else. I choose Hell over any other God.

Any chance I get to know for sure what's true before I have to make a choice?

It depends on whether or not you can pray that mock prayer and be willing to give your life to see it is answered or not.

http://www.krishna.com › About Krishna › The Reading Room

Did you think I wasn't going to look?
this was taken from exactly where you told me to look.

Krishna.com » About Krishna » The Reading Room
"How to consider Krishna as God?"
Q: How to consider Krishna as God?

A: The way Krishna describes Himself in Bhagavad-gita it is clear He is God.

I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. (Bg. 10.8).

I am seated in everyone's heart and from Me come remembrance, knowledge, and forgetfulness. (Bg. 15.15).
..

Do I need to state the obvious or will you concede your misrepresentation of Christianity's principle of ask seek and knock as found in Luke 11 with belief in Krishna?

That doesn't make it just.

by what standard?

If I believed God existed I would want to be with him for eternity if the alternative was hell.

How do you know what you would want? Do you still want the same things as you did when you were three as you do now? How long has that been 20, 30, 40 years?

In my garden theory Adam and Eve lasted about as long as it took for slime to mutate into Humans. Even if this was 900 trillion years, they still fell from grace. Why because their hearts were not all the way in it. They were discontent because they wanted what they could not have. How many years will pass before you want what you can not have?

The only guarantee is to want what God wants for you and that is a relationship with Him. If you fill you heart with this instead of trying to avoid Hell then you will have what your heart aches for for all eternity. Time will erode all pretenses and false intentions. Till one day (just like with Satan) you will decide Hell is the better option. Heaven will become Hell for all who do not want to be with God with all of their being. It has happened to all form of sentient life to this point.

?I'm not positive I could stand heaven for eternity either. You guys do a much better job of selling hell as a place to avoid than heaven as a place you'd want to spend eternity in. Of course, if Islam is the true path, you've no complaints if Allah simply holds you to the choice you made, eh?

Again if the God of Heaven is not he God of the bible i will not be going unless that god drags me in there kicking and screaming.

[Mister Agenda]

Why do you believe the sum total of the sacrifice God gave resulted in His son's death?

I have no recollection of saying that I believe the sum total of the sacrifice God gave resulted in his son's death. What are you on about?

So because God is not a parent as you would be a parent then He can not be your God?

If he's not analogous to my father, maybe Christians should find a better analogy. When you actually compare God to a father, and eliminate every way the analogy doesn't work, there isn't much left but a figure you claim gets the credit for my existence but won't reveal his own unless I do exactly as you say.

What if you grew up in a different culture? Would your standard parenting still be based in the western culture or would you demand God parent as you would parent in your new culture?

You mean in a culture where fatherhood means something different than in cultures where Christianity is predominant?

When does worship of God stop being about you?

When I start worshiping him.

Until you dial the right number you indeed hear what He wants to to hear.. Absolutely nothing. and you will continue to hear nothing till you sub mit yourself as He has commanded every other living soul.

Well, we're at an impasse then. It's idiotic to submit to an imaginary being, if God wants people to submit to him without knowing he's real, he wants idiots, and I'm afraid he's out of luck with me.

No. They tend to dial the religious efforts prescribed their tradition of Choice.

If only there were a being capable of insuring everyone got the same clear instructions.

It's really easy to discern if one does or does not have a Spiritual gift. Test the gift as given (as not all can communicate)

Like seeing if the person has access to verifiable information they could not otherwise have known?

Then why seek a proponent? Why not open your own bible and seek God for yourself?

The book so nice I read it twice. My motivation for reading it was to get closer to God, I was quite devout and idealistic. I had been taught God is loving and just. The barbarism contained therein didn't make me an atheist. It did make me an agnostic theist. I still believed there was a God, I just couldn't believe it could be as violent and capricious as the God the Bible describes.

Again only if you need someone to think for you.

The process you seem to be using does not closely resemble 'thinking' as it is commonly understood. It looks more like a way of avoiding thinking.

Growing up in the west I am sure you think the rest of the world's fathers think as you do.

By 'west', you mean I got my ideas of fatherhood in a predominantly Christian country, yes.

And you probably think if they do not think as you do, they are wrong in some way. When/if you decide to look past your comfortable life style to the rest of the world you will note quickly that you and your standards of parenting are in the minority.

Would you please name a country in which a father missing a child would not try to search for him or her if they were able? You're being very vague about these other countries where fathers don't demonstrate any love for their children.

Meaning that not all have adopted the proud child philosophy where the parents are to serve the children.

Loving your children and caring enough about their fate to try to find out what happened to them and letting them know you've been looking once you know their location is serving them?

The rest of the world has their children obeying their parents, learning from them and working with them to strengthen the family.

Just like my father. Except he would lift a finger to show he cares whether I live or die. Which apparently you are saying most of the fathers in the world would not.

Like wise if you are a loving child you will return home to your father..

You can't love a father you don't know. At best, you can hope that wherever they are, they have a good reason for not being present in your life that you would understand if you knew, and that if you met them, they would turn out to be someone worthy of love rather than a sperm donor who took off because he didn't want to be a father and still doesn't.

Again unless you humble yourself what in creation makes you think He wants to?

Repeated unsubstantiated claims that he loves me.

You do not understand the term. Humility only in the sight of the master is false humility. Genuine humility permeates the individual no matter what the situation. If you were a humble man you would be a humble man in or out of the presents of God.

You're not asking me to humble myself out of sight of the master. You're asking to accept hearsay that there's a master who wants me to humble myself, and won't reveal his existence until I do. Nowhere else in life besides religion would you expect anyone with an ounce of sense to accept a proposition like that.

If you are a humble man only in the site of God then know you are simply submissive to the authority and power of God.. The difference? Humble means you give of your heart. Submissive is a showing of fear. While fear is the beginning of the knowledge of God Love is the completion of it.

Well, let's start with fear then, and see where it goes. God is welcome to reveal himself by terrifying me.

Show Me The Religious Text Of Every Other God that Offers what The God Of The Bible Offers. Or is this just ANOTHER empty retort?

Clearly my retorts are full enough to make you figuratively raise your typing voice.

Just like every other god in that if you believe they are real and that they can hear your thoughts, you will be able to 'hear' them or interpret their signs or whatever if you try hard enough to mentally contact them, through whatever means while having whatever the proper attitude is supposed to be. That's how other people 'hear' from their gods, same as yours. They seek, ask, and knock.

You miss the point. You do not have to Convince yourself of anything (meaning complete the task) God promises to complete this task Himself.

Since I said that's how you start to convince yourself, I didn't miss the point. If you start to convince yourself 9/11 was an inside job, you will find evidence to support what you're trying to convince yourself of. That's why so much of science is about controlling biases of perception, once we start looking for evidence to support a conclusion rather than drawing a conclusion from the evidence, we have unknowingly set ourselves on a path likely to lead to the desired conclusion, no matter what that conclusion is. I gave up the idea of God reluctantly, over many years. What I want to be true has absolutely no bearing on what actually is true. Again, any god can complete the task of convincing you that it exists once you set out to believe: that's because it's all in our heads.

Meaning again you will not have done anything except follow where the evidence leads.

Except bias myself in a way certain to ensure that I reach the pre-determined conclusion by filtering the evidence with confirmation bias.

What if God does not want you to worship a signs and wonders magician you have just made him out to be? wouldn't this be counterproductive if He were to answer your request the way you just framed it?

If you want me to believe God doesn't want me to worship such a God, he shouldn't have made his name as the signs and wonders sort. Even in the NT that's how he supposedly showed Jesus was his son, and why people believed it. That's the Jewish and Christian God, a sea-parting, water-walking, vision providing miracle machine! Are you talking about a different God?

What if this meant your life or the life of someone you love? would you still pray this prayer?

Whether it means anyone's life is exactly what's in question. Answer your question for yourself with Zeus as the object of the prayer, and get back to me. I expect my answer is the same as yours when it comes to how much of a prayer we'll spare for a god we consider imaginary.

I prayed this prayer with the attitude "no matter the cost" and I got what i prayed for. I was diagnosed with over 200 skin lesions due to a viral infection that people with healthy immune systems can easily fight off. This lead the doctors to suspect that i had HIV. They did a test and two weeks later confirmed the initial diagnosis, upon which I was given another test to confirm. I prayed for my life initially then found a great peace. It wasn't until I humbled myself that I did find what I was looking for. Not in a church not in a religious denomination, but in God. the doctor had me return for my second test results and another round of treatment for my lesions. Where upon I was tested negative for HIV. Again another blood sample was taken and a revisit scheduled. When I returned the remaining lesions had healed themselves. I still have over 100 small scars where the lesions were treated to remind me of my answered prayer. (even still this was not enough for me to completely change, but it was enough to break my hard heart, and point me in the right direction.)

If God will miraculously end malaria or childhood leukemia or Alzheimer's or Huntington's disease, or harlequin ichtyosis (any one of those will do), I'll pay any cost. I'll preach my whole life, I'll give everything away, whatever he wants. I don't want anything for myself, I've lived 50 years, I'll be content with dying horribly tomorrow if only God will end one of those diseases today.

If you want to know God then offer all that you have to give. Give Him what is most valuable in your life. Money, job, life whatever you will not put a price on, offer all of it. Know you may not get it back but you will have your "proof" before you die. (you just don't know how soon that will be)

Again a recipe likely to wind up in belief whether or not the object of the belief is real.

Just want you to know what you are asking for in the "prayer" you offered. Now all you have to do is seek in the bible, in church, and with people like me (willing to study with you) and knock by repeating this process till you get what you want.

Again a recipe likely to wind up in belief whether or not the object of the belief is real. If I worked that hard at believing Voodoun or Hare Krishna, I've no doubt I'd succeed. You clearly can't offer anything distinguishable from what happens in any other people's noggins when they struggle to believe.

It a metaphor for humbling yourself to the point of asking for help to get what you need to eventually physically kneel.

Well, I've asked for that. We'll see how it turns out.

Is it righteousness to throw yourself on a grenade for those you love?

It's theatre if you know the grenade is a prop that can't really kill you.

You do not have to assume anything. i explained in detail what i meant.

Granted. You were very clear that I am not worthy of receiving a revelation because it's a greater crime to not follow any God than it is to have Christians killed, apparently.

How do you know that He didn't?

Um, because of all the people who murdered and oppressed in his name with impunity.

Perhaps Paul was the only one with the means and ability to write it all down.

You mean with the means to pay a scribe like Paul did?

How many times have you been to Africa, and what have you told them?

I've never been to Africa, all I ever do for Africans is send money to Camfed every few months and tutor refugee children and help their families. I could do more. Africa is on my list of places to go for purely selfish reasons, as clearly I can do more good by donating the cost of the trip than I can do with what little help I am capable of giving with my presence. I struggle with the idea of keeping anything above what I need to stay housed and clothed and fed in the face of the suffering that happens there.

Matter of fact how many times have you been to you local inner city and helped the homeless, the addicts, the working poor, the worthless poor? how many times have you reach out and made an effective change in just one persons life?

I've never counted the number of times I've tried to do some small good in the world. It never occurred to me to track it. How many times have you? I wouldn't say someone is worthless because they're poor, but I understand you meant it very literally as in they don't have income or financial assets.

It is alot easier to judge what you hear goes on in Africa from the comfort of your ipad than actually getting up and out to effect change in your own community.

I've been very patient with you, Drich. You don't know me or what I do or don't do or what my life is like. You've judged me based on nothing and expect me to trust you when you claim to be in touch with the divine. Whatever you're in touch with, I want no part of it if contemptible accusatons like that are an example of its fruits.

Why should I listen to anything you say if you're fine with taking potshots at me based on your imaginary image of what I must be like? I don't even own any kind of smart phone. I don't own a new car, I drove my last one until the engine gave out, just like the one before it (a sixteen year-old Toyota Corolla I paid $400 for and drove four years). I'm paying the mortage on a $50,000 home. My laptop is on its last legs and is the only computer I own. My neighborhood was plagued with crack so bad a few years ago that children I knew were selling it to their mothers. Someone I love was hooked on it and nothing I was able to do or the God she desperately prayed to was able to free her. You don't know me, Drich, and your facile assumptions about me reveal you as just another jerk who thinks they know someone because you argued with him on the internet. The word for that isn't humility, it's arrogance.

[NoMoreFaith]

Why o Why won't they let me rep people twice...

[Mister Agenda]

I've often wondered the same thing. I suppose it's more egalitarian this way.

[Whateverist]

The book so nice I read it twice. My motivation for reading it was to get closer to God, I was quite devout and idealistic. I had been taught God is loving and just. The barbarism contained therein didn't make me an atheist. It did make me an agnostic theist. I still believed there was a God, I just couldn't believe it could be as violent and capricious as the God the Bible describes.

Again only if you need someone to think for you.

The process you seem to be using does not closely resemble 'thinking' as it is commonly understood. It looks more like a way of avoiding thinking.

An agnostic theist! My very favorite kind and so rare. I was that before I just stopped caring whether or not God exists. The God I could imagine was a major improvement over the one the bible and one I would be overjoyed to meet. Ah well, I think I'm better off for having imagined him than I would have been had I not. Do you still hold out hope of such a meeting or are you essentially an atheist like me?

[Mister Agenda]

I'm essentially an atheist now, I would be quite surprised to learn God (or any supernatural being) really exists. As an agnostic theist at least I was able to have a lovely idea of an omnibenevolent God doing his best without completely unlimited power and knowledge. Of course, when I was one, I didn't know to call myself that. It just didn't occur to me at first that there wasn't a God, because I was still wrapped up in notions of someone needing to take some sort of action to start the universe, just that there was no good reason to think the people who wrote the Bible were that different from their peers regarding their access to an omnipotent universe creator. It was all just stories, some of them about things that really happened, mixed with the sort of supernatural explanations for events that are typical of ancient peoples. If the Hebrews lost a battle it was Yahweh's will, if the Greeks lost a battle it was the will of their gods, if someone had a heart attack or stroke and keeled over out of the blue they were being punished for some offense to a deity. If the Genesis story was broken down into chapters with headings like: Why we don't live forever, why women suffer in childbirth, or why snakes have no legs; the similarity to 'why' stories told in other cultures would be more obvious.

But at least I have an idea of a better God, one that isn't just a pile of omnis stacked up over generations of people claiming their God is the mightiest; one that didn't create us just to see if we would pass some test, with a sadistic punishment in store for those who fail. That God is completely imaginary too, but at least it wouldn't require me to twist myself into knots trying to justify its bizarre actions and commands.