The bible

[Godscreated]

I know that they were written after but isn't that kind of self explanatory since his death was a fulfillment of prophecy. If it was written before there would have been no way to know that it was full filled.

The parts of the NT that fulfill OT prophecies could indeed be just that - fulfilled prophecies.

Or it could be that the person writing the NT in the 2nd century had a copy of the Jewish Torah open in front of him, and was working his way through a ckecklist of prophecy fulfillments that he had to incorporate into his new tome since these things add weight to a new religion you're inventing.

Given these two alternatives, magic or human manipulation, I know what I would choose.

Also his death was what marked the actual start of the new law. This was first preached on the day of Pentecost. Some people dont realize that there is an old law and new law. Before there were the resources of of mass communication there was a need of miracles and things of that nature to spread the word. After Christ was born and grew he gave only them these gifts to prove he is real. After his death he was resurrected as was prophesied setting the new law standards. acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. In being baptized we are baptized into Christ death and brought out to walk a newness of life (romans 6:1-9).

Most of this seems to be religious gobble-de-gook that would be of interest only to the fellow believers of your chosen religion. Try not to quote the bible as "evidence", and assume that most atheists on this forum are familiar with the basics of Xtianity - they just don't believe it.

Regards

Grimesy

There's a problem with your reasoning, the Jews did not believe in the kind of Messiah that is written about in the NT. There was no such teaching at all of the Christ of the NT, that is until His life revealed the truth of prophecy.

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I would like to ask the question why is the Bible not historically correct? Can someone in some detail tell me why it cannot be correct or where it is said to be contradictory and also where it has mistakes?
thank you.

So you're ok with the earth being flat. Or the cure for leprosy involving a dead beard in an earthen pot over running water. Or the fact that your god inflicted livestock with boils that he himself had already killled. The fact that Jesus has two different lineages through a dude (Joseph) that didn't have the priviledge of the shag? Light created before the sun. The moon has its own light source. The laws of physics were suspended for the express purpose of extermination.

My reciprocal question is this...
How does an adult human being read the bible and not conclude that it is a collection of stories written by semi-savages? If I were the creator of the universe and took time to notice this particular book written in my name, I would immediately wipe all traces of the book and its believers (without a fucking flood, or paint on hinges) in an attempt to reconcile the insult.

What more detail do you require?

Please show Biblical proof of your statements, book, chapter and verses.

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I know that they were written after but isn't that kind of self explanatory since his death was a fulfillment of prophecy.

Well no it wasn't, not even close. Perhaps go to the trouble of reading what the Jews actually believed about the Messiah and still do.

Also his death was what marked the actual start of the new law.

Umm,no,it wasn't:

Matthew 5:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Thanks for the verses Pad, you should think about what they say. Verse 17 Jesus came to fulfill the law and prophets. He did just that, until Christ came the Jews as a whole looked for a military Messiah, Christ fulfilled what the prophets wrote and was a Messiah of peace. Then Christ did not change the law, He fulfilled it by saying that the laws are broken in the heart and not necessarily by physical action. Verse 18 Jesus did not change the law but fulfilled it, Christ was the fulfillment of the OT and at the resurrection, Christ was not talking about the fulfillment of the NT. Verse 19 Christ shows that works does not cause one to not get into heaven.

[Minimalist]

There's a problem with your reasoning, the Jews did not believe in the kind of Messiah that is written about in the NT.

For once in your life, you're right.

There was no such teaching at all of the Christ of the NT, that is until His life revealed the truth of prophecy.

Convenient, huh? True of most "prophecies," though. The Athenians figured out that the wooden wall that Apollo told them to stand behind meant their navy...not the palisade on top of the Acropolis. Score one for the Oracle of Delphi.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Thanks for the verses Pad, you should think about what they say. Verse 17 Jesus came to fulfill the law and prophets. He did just that, until Christ came the Jews as a whole looked for a military Messiah, Christ fulfilled what the prophets wrote and was a Messiah of peace.

He did neither. The Christian cherry picking is risible. (if true,which is doubtful)


Jesus was nothing like the Messiah of the prophets.


Perhaps actually have a look:


Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14


The full article is worth reading,there are LOTS more. Google is your friend.

What Will the Mashiach Do?

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age

The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.

Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.

In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

Some gentiles have tried to put an ugly spin on this theology, claiming that Jews plan to force people to convert to our religion, perhaps based on their own religion's history of doing exactly the same thing. That is not at all how Jews understand the messianic age. We believe that in that future time, everyone will simply know what the truth is, in the same way that we know that 2+2=4, and there will no longer be any reason to argue about it. It is much like a situation I witnessed at work once: two computer programmers were arguing loudly and at length about whether it was possible for a user to input data at a certain point in a program. Finally someone pressed a key and they all saw that nothing happened. Now they knew the truth, end of argument. When mashiach comes, theological truths will be equally obvious to mankind, and there will be no reason to argue about it.

What About Jesus?

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the mashiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.

On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the mashiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a mashiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the mashiach.

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

[FallentoReason]

This self-proclaimed apostle always seems to speak in a way that undermines everything that Jesus 'achieved' here on earth.

The earliest remaining xtian work of any length...and which is doubtlessly authentic...is Justin Martyr's First Apology to Antoninus Pius c 156 AD. In it, he never mentions anyone named "Paul" or "Saul" which indicates that that portion of the story had not been invented, or, "Saul/Paul" was a creation of the heretic Marcion who was later surgically removed from Marcion's canon and "rehabilitated" along with all the fantastic bullshit that they later wrote about him.

Also, Justin never mentions the gospels of Mark Luke, Matthew or John. In fact, the only "John" he does mention is John the Baptist.

In this way we can track the development of the story.

Wasn't 'Paul' actually Simon Magus? I don't know enough about that possible link, so I always talk about Paul as if it was actually himself.

I agree about what you said of the disciples/Apostles. It just goes to show that they were anonymously written.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Wasn't 'Paul' actually Simon Magus?

Oh,I hadn't heard that before.Evidence?

I HAVE heard that (1)The Epistles seem to have been written by at least two different hands (2) Several of the Epistles are in fact forgeries. (3) an increasing number of scholars are positing that Saul/Paul never existed.


0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

I just Googled "Was st Paul Simon Magnus?" There are a LOT of people who think so. Some argue that Peter was Simon Magus,or that Paul was Simon Magus AND the fist Pope.

The stuff I looked at reads like pure crackpottery.

I would love to see something written by an actual [secular]scholar,not obviously biases or nuts.

[Cato]

So you're ok with the earth being flat. Or the cure for leprosy involving a dead beard in an earthen pot over running water. Or the fact that your god inflicted livestock with boils that he himself had already killled. The fact that Jesus has two different lineages through a dude (Joseph) that didn't have the priviledge of the shag? Light created before the sun. The moon has its own light source. The laws of physics were suspended for the express purpose of extermination.

My reciprocal question is this...
How does an adult human being read the bible and not conclude that it is a collection of stories written by semi-savages? If I were the creator of the universe and took time to notice this particular book written in my name, I would immediately wipe all traces of the book and its believers (without a fucking flood, or paint on hinges) in an attempt to reconcile the insult.

What more detail do you require?

Please show Biblical proof of your statements, book, chapter and verses.

Flat Earth:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm

Cure for leprosy:
http://www.atheistmafia.com/index.php/20...rosy-cure/

Punishment against dead Egyption livestock:
http://ponderingtruth.blogspot.com/2009/...-dead.html

Lineage of Jesus:
http://ecclesia.org/truth/geneology.html

Earth created before the sun. Sun and moon created at the same time. Moon is 'the lesser light':
Read Genesis, it won't take you long to find.

Sun stood still:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/long_day.html

Have fun. Keep in mind I've seen most of the traditional apologies for these. The amusing bit is that most of the excuses are more absurd than the original.

[Minimalist]

Bear in mind, Cato, that the purpose of an apology is to give the fuckwit some excuse....ANY excuse...to keep on believing that his/her bullshit is true. To that end the apology can be as fucking stupid as the original claim. It does not matter. It has served its purpose by making morons feel comfortable.

[Godscreated]

Please show Biblical proof of your statements, book, chapter and verses.

Flat Earth:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm

Cure for leprosy:
http://www.atheistmafia.com/index.php/20...rosy-cure/

Punishment against dead Egyption livestock:
http://ponderingtruth.blogspot.com/2009/...-dead.html

Lineage of Jesus:
http://ecclesia.org/truth/geneology.html

Earth created before the sun. Sun and moon created at the same time. Moon is 'the lesser light':
Read Genesis, it won't take you long to find.

Sun stood still:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/long_day.html

Have fun. Keep in mind I've seen most of the traditional apologies for these. The amusing bit is that most of the excuses are more absurd than the original.

Atheist claim they are so smart, yet you for one buy into such gullible nonsense. Tell me where has your reasoning gone, or have you ever had the ability to reason for yourself. IMO you have not, you listen to such trite explanations of scripture without ever taking the time to study scripture, you leave me and others wondering if a logical discussion is possible with you.

[Cato]

Atheist claim they are so smart, yet you for one buy into such gullible nonsense. Tell me where has your reasoning gone, or have you ever had the ability to reason for yourself. IMO you have not, you listen to such trite explanations of scripture without ever taking the time to study scripture, you leave me and others wondering if a logical discussion is possible with you.

The Bible must be true, because I am now gnashing my teeth.

Holy Shit!

[Tobie]

Flat Earth:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm

Cure for leprosy:
http://www.atheistmafia.com/index.php/20...rosy-cure/

Punishment against dead Egyption livestock:
http://ponderingtruth.blogspot.com/2009/...-dead.html

Lineage of Jesus:
http://ecclesia.org/truth/geneology.html

Earth created before the sun. Sun and moon created at the same time. Moon is 'the lesser light':
Read Genesis, it won't take you long to find.

Sun stood still:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/long_day.html

Have fun. Keep in mind I've seen most of the traditional apologies for these. The amusing bit is that most of the excuses are more absurd than the original.

Atheist claim they are so smart, yet you for one buy into such gullible nonsense. Tell me where has your reasoning gone, or have you ever had the ability to reason for yourself. IMO you have not, you listen to such trite explanations of scripture without ever taking the time to study scripture, you leave me and others wondering if a logical discussion is possible with you.

Some good ad hom there. You going to explain why these problems with the bible are perfectly fine, or are you just going to hurl garbage at people?