Christians

[ecolox]

We can't explain the inside of the universe, much less the outside. I think it's reasonable to stop trying to explain things once we have explained the universe.

And the dodge award goes to!

Good dodge. I'm still going to ask the question. If everything has a purpose then whats the purpose of god?

God is what I end up with upon 'reverse engineering' the universe - inductive reasoning, it's the best I can do. If I could see God plainly and apply similar techniques then I'm sure I could answer your question. As things are, it is not reasonable to ask that question. I can see the world and how it works, hence the fact that it is reasonable to ask questions about the universe that have answers that transcend it.

We can explain how to split atoms, how to convert energy on a gigantic scale, to alter DNA in animals and even the formation of not just our planet but the solar system and galaxies. It's never reasonable to stop trying to explain things. It's part of the learning process. First question then answer with either assumptions or scientific observation. (One method is somewhat better than the other) Everything will be questioned, even your god.

All of those explanations have nothing to do with the question of why we are here. And you can ask as many questions as you want. A question is not innately reasonable (e.g. a stupid question) - so, do so at your own risk.

Perhaps everything will be questioned by you, but few things will be answered.

---

Give me one example of something that is positive that belief in God can give you, that atheism can't, that isn't merely the placebo effect - and that can actually be backed up by evidence.

Hope and a reason for existing - results in a different lifestyle. Belief in God results from seeing this existence (all the evidence in the world) and answering the question of where it came from...

So how have you explained that you can't get a hope and reason for existing without God? You haven't. You made assertions.

You haven't explained how you can get a hope. Just made empty statements and promoted vainness.

Nor have you given evidence for God. You've just asserted that it's "all around you", no, that's life. So since you've failed to explain my question above, perhaps you could explain why the universe not only needs an explanation, but needs "God" as one, and God on the other hand somehow doesn't need an explanation at all?

The evidence for God is the universe - what other evidence would I have? You say, "no, that's life" - what in the hell is that supposed to mean? If the universe is a mystery to you then it needs an explanation (so if you're honest). It is not so reasonable to question "where God came from" because we can't see God in the traditional sense - and see where the evidence might take us. We have nothing to work with in regards to that question. Building a case for God from the universe is hard enough with the universe to look at - now you expect someone to build a case for where God came from or why God exists without being able to see Him or His circumstances or who knows what. That's crazy in my opinion, and it certainly isn't a fair question to pose in response to the question of where this universe came from... Our circumstances don't allow that question to be reasonable.

---

EvF and theVOID, how can anyone deny that this universe needs an explanation? It is a great mystery to everyone here is it not?

A great mystery it is, and explanations all mankind would love, but if you aren't going to find it in current science as we know it, you sure as hell won't find what you're looking for in religion. 'Nuff said.

Science isn't asking that question, so you sure as hell won't find the answer in science. How can you set up an experiment that demonstrates why our universe exists?

Religion is dealing with that question and has been for thousands of years, so why would you look to science that has never dealt with the question...in fact, scientifically you can't conceive of approaching it. I challenge you to solve the great mystery through the scientific process though, because it is a life-changing topic.

[theVOID]

All of those explanations have nothing to do with the question of why we are here. And you can ask as many questions as you want. A question is not innately reasonable (e.g. a stupid question) - so, do so at your own risk.

Perhaps everything will be questioned by you, but few things will be answered.

YOU ARE AN IDIOT SIR!

We don't know what happened before the big bang.
We don't know why we are here, ASSUMING THERE IS A 'WHY' AT ALL!
We don't know the exact origins of life on this planet.

But that DOES NOT, I REPEAT, DOES NOT MEAN GUESSING THAT IT WAS A GOD, In place of real answers, IS ANYTHING MORE THAN COMPLETE BUFFOONERY!!!

You INSIST on a belief that is not only DEVOID COMPLETELY of ANY evidence but one that is also REJECTED COMPLETELY BUT THE SUMMATION OF ALL EVIDENCE FROM ALL FIELDS OF STUDY!

You talk about how you 'reversed engineered' the universe, but what real study did you do? You only put God into a gap - and you think that is in some way an adequate position? LAUGHABLE!

You say few things will be answers by us - LAUGHABLE AGAIN! Science and those who support it are the ONLY people getting real answers to the big questions. Look at what science has given us! Then look at what we got from religion during the past 2000 years... FUCK ALL - And you claim religion is going to give us answers! My sides hurt!

Not only that, but science gives us these things without asking for complete loyalty and worship, doesn't threaten us with suffering if we don't believe, doesn't demand our respect, doesn't watch over us as an intergalactic dictator - It has every advantage and no disadvantage.

Well done Ecolox - You are the most stupid individual i have ever encountered on these boards, bar none.

[Retorth]

Science isn't asking that question, so you sure as hell won't find the answer in science. How can you set up an experiment that demonstrates why our universe exists?

Religion is dealing with that question and has been for thousands of years, so why would you look to science that has never dealt with the question...in fact, scientifically you can't conceive of approaching it. I challenge you to solve the great mystery through the scientific process though, because it is a life-changing topic.

I already stated, to which you quoted. Science isn't asking that question so obviously you won't find it there.

Religion has been "dealing" with it by spreading false testimony through text that nobody can verify. How can you be so sure that the information it contains is infallible when you cannot even prove the god that exists in that text in the first place? It's like putting on a blindfold and walking around in a dark cave. Why not just take the blindfold off and use a torchlight? You just blind yourself further to only end up smacking into walls sooner or later.

Ace and I answered your question regarding the meaning of life in our perspective already but you keep shunning it because it doesn't suit your religious persona. You keep asking the same question over and over again seemingly in hopes that we would go "Aw crap you're right, life really means nothing without a supernatural being to spy on us constantly" but that will never happen. Face it, god doesn't exist. Pray for hours, months, or days but you will still have to walk to the kitchen to get a drink. You still have to work hard to earn a living. You still have to walk to the bathroom to take a poop. No amount of being holy changes anything in life.

Last but not least, if your god is so powerful and almighty, why is it that you are failing so miserably in these forums?

[theVOID]

Science isn't asking that question, so you sure as hell won't find the answer in science. How can you set up an experiment that demonstrates why our universe exists?

Religion is dealing with that question and has been for thousands of years, so why would you look to science that has never dealt with the question...in fact, scientifically you can't conceive of approaching it. I challenge you to solve the great mystery through the scientific process though, because it is a life-changing topic.

I already stated, to which you quoted. Science isn't asking that question so obviously you won't find it there.

Religion has been "dealing" with it by spreading false testimony through text that nobody can verify. How can you be so sure that the information it contains is infallible when you cannot even prove the god that exists in that text in the first place? It's like putting on a blindfold and walking around in a dark cave. Why not just take the blindfold off and use a torchlight? You just blind yourself further to only end up smacking into walls sooner or later.

Ace and I answered your question regarding the meaning of life in our perspective already but you keep shunning it because it doesn't suit your religious persona. You keep asking the same question over and over again seemingly in hopes that we would go "Aw crap you're right, life really means nothing without a supernatural being to spy on us constantly" but that will never happen. Face it, god doesn't exist. Pray for hours, months, or days but you will still have to walk to the kitchen to get a drink. You still have to work hard to earn a living. You still have to walk to the bathroom to take a poop. No amount of being holy changes anything in life.

Last but not least, if your god is so powerful and almighty, why is it that you are failing so miserably in these forums?

The same reason they all do - they cannot verify any assumptions they raise in their arguments.

[Edwardo Piet]

You haven't explained how you can get a hope. Just made empty statements and promoted vainness.

I get hope from things that inspire me and make me feel hope. It is influenced by the outside, the environment and is also down to my genetic make up. It's a matter of evolution.

But I'm no expert and that, and nor do I have to be. The point is you haven't given evidence for God's existence. So how is he relevant to hope if you haven't even evidenced him yet?

I need evidence 1. That God exists and 2. That he's required for hope.

I already have hope, however I get it, I have it. As do other atheists and people of many different kinds of beliefs. You need to evidence that God is required in any way.

The evidence for God is the universe - what other evidence would I have?
You're just asserting that he i You say, "no, that's life" - what in the hell is that supposed to mean?

It means that when you say that the universe is evidence for God, you're merely asserting that because you haven't explained how that's the case. You haven't explained why God is required for the universe. The universe, life, exists either way until you explain why God is required in any way. Otherwise you're just pointing at life and the universe - because you haven't explained why God is required yet.

If the universe is a mystery to you then it needs an explanation (so if you're honest). It is not so reasonable to question "where God came from" because we can't see God in the traditional sense - and see where the evidence might take us.

You're merely defining God as the beginning and not needing an explanation. If something had to be at the beginning, why does that have to be God?

It would certainly be nice to have an explanation yes. But no I don't need one to dismiss God at all. Because merely asserting God isn't an explanation. I'd rather settle for no explanation, a "I don't know" if I had to, than asserting something without any evidence for the truth of it. Rather saying "I don't know" than having a delusional belief, than having a fallacious explanation. A non-answer.

Building a case for God from the universe is hard enough with the universe to look at - now you expect someone to build a case for where God came from or why God exists without being able to see Him or His circumstances or who knows what. That's crazy in my opinion,

Well what you are saying would make sense if this case for the universe explaining God's existence was indeed built! You are merely asserting that. Until it is actually evidenced that the universe builds a case for God, or that anything else does, then there's no reason to believe in him. I need evidence.

The universe is self-evident. To say that the universe is evidence for God is an assertion, and you either need to back that up, you need to evidence that the Universe is indeed evidence for a supernatural creator, or you have basically just labeled the Universe with the word "God." The universe itself is indeed self-evident. But how does that point to a supernatural creator? Where is the evidence for that?

[...]it certainly isn't a fair question to pose in response to the question of where this universe came from... Our circumstances don't allow that question to be reasonable.[/quote]

Our circumstances is irrelevant to the fact you are simply asserting that God exists and that the universe is evidence for him. You need to explain that, otherwise you're committing a bare assertion fallacy, you're simply saying "it's true because it's true." Unless you explain why the universe is evidence for God, there's no reason to believe that it is. I'm not just going to believe things without reason, and I don't believe any rational person would. Rationality is reasonable.

EvF and theVOID, how can anyone deny that this universe needs an explanation? It is a great mystery to everyone here is it not?

Some people don't feel the need, some do. I do feel the need, but if there's no explanation yet, until there is an explanation...I'm going to stick with "I don't know" because I'm not going to pretend there's one when there isn't. I'm not going to believe prematurely.

What I deny is that "God" is necessarily an explanation for the universe. Because I won't believe that until there's any evidence that the universe - or anything else - is evidence for God in any way. I don't know of any any I'm not going to just believe without reason.

Science isn't asking that question, so you sure as hell won't find the answer in science. How can you set up an experiment that demonstrates why our universe exists?

Religion is dealing with that question and has been for thousands of years, so why would you look to science that has never dealt with the question...in fact, scientifically you can't conceive of approaching it. I challenge you to solve the great mystery through the scientific process though, because it is a life-changing topic.

This is all irrelevant to the fact you haven't provided any evidence for God. Whether science has an answer or not, what evidence is there that religion has one? At all?

I'd rather be honest and say "I don't know" than accept God without any evidence for the truth of him. That would be delusional.

EvF

[ecolox]

I never said that, i'm a big fan of science for the reason that it IS getting us answers and moving us forward as a species as opposed to your religion that is doing fuck all.

I like science, but I can't stoop to your level.

Let's see some examples bub. Of course I'd ask for those!

I love cosmology, astrophysics, quantum mechanics, evolutionary biology, abiogenisis and the like, these are the topics that give us REAL and MEANINGFUL answers about the universe, life and origins in general, not the thoughts of primitive men.

All the topics you listed have nothing to do with the question I asked - or the speculations you of course participate in... Did you realize that?

We have a very good idea how life on this planet originated and it wasn't through sky daddy saying 'ta-da', we also have a very good idea of the history of the universe and that also does not require sky daddy, and it's not surprising considering his origins in the mind of primitive men.

But the universe's existence is still a mystery though, right?

Getting an understanding of the origin of life and the universe is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, each scientist in these fields is out there every day picking up the pieces one at a time and making absolutely sure they all fit, there are still a lot of pieces missing for now but we have millions more pieces than the ancient religious originators and as such we are able to see a far more accurate picture of the universe that their limited intellects ever could.

Still not addressing the big question.

Face it ecolox, Religion can offer us nothing else in the way of piecing together the puzzle because all you ever do is sit around contemplating ancient texts written by (and i'll say it again to make it clear) PRIMITIVE MEN rather than actively trying to piece together the puzzle like all the scientists out there are doing every day.

Religion is about figuring out why we exist, in large part... Science has nothing to say about it, and neither do you so far.

If you need the fear of god to make you live this life right your mentally unstable, though i doubt you do need him to live a good life, it's just your lifelong brainwashing coming into effect forcing you to attribute everything good to your sky daddy.

Now I'm mentally unstable because I tackle the important questions in life. You people resort to attacks quicker than anyone I know. If you can silence the 'opposition' then you think you've 'won' - yet you never address that big question that we're pushing. I may quit wasting my time with you if you start going crazy and become irrational here...but I can't just give up on what is essential to life as a rational being.

How can you claim to take the finite life approach when part of your belief is an infinite life of kissing sky daddy's ass?

You can attack my beliefs in these ways, but you will remain ineffective until you offer a real alternative solution.

And besides, what purpose do you have in this life as a Christian? To be obedient, to serve, to praise. It can't be about doing good or living well because in your world view Good and evil are only what God says they are, or more correctly, what you have been told to believe god said to some primitive men in the bronze age middle east who, after generations of hearsay, had their interactions with god recorded in a book that you, thousands of years later, still believe is true.

All you try to do is tear down, but I need a place to live. Build me a new house instead if you don't like my old one. But anyway, life in God's universe is very much in sync with His universe - encouraging growth in everyone through good works. I want to do what's good for nature, what's good for myself, what's good for others, etc - to the best of my ability. I love to see growth. I believe destruction is apart from God's nature, and pain is a taste of what being away from God is like. The lasting pleasures in life are good (family, etc), while the short lived pleasures (sex, drugs, etc), when pursued specifically, lead to pain - in a nutshell.

Who's orders do I follow except God's? The rules I follow are good for growth and sustainability - good for the universe - I will do my best no matter how small I may be.

[quote='theVOID']Stop being so gullible!

Stop being so useless. If you can't build me a house then I can't let you tear my old one down...sorry.

---

[quote='ecolox' pid='33245' dateline='1252984082']
All of those explanations have nothing to do with the question of why we are here. And you can ask as many questions as you want. A question is not innately reasonable (e.g. a stupid question) - so, do so at your own risk.

Perhaps everything will be questioned by you, but few things will be answered.

YOU ARE AN IDIOT SIR!

I'm glad you think so. Jesus said "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me".

We don't know what happened before the big bang.
We don't know why we are here, ASSUMING THERE IS A 'WHY' AT ALL!
We don't know the exact origins of life on this planet.

I know, that's why I got you to admit that your existence is a big mystery.

But that DOES NOT, I REPEAT, DOES NOT MEAN GUESSING THAT IT WAS A GOD, In place of real answers, IS ANYTHING MORE THAN COMPLETE BUFFOONERY!!!

What real answers have you supplied...none. You would rather sit in a pool of your own ignorance than try to explain why you exist.

You INSIST on a belief that is not only DEVOID COMPLETELY of ANY evidence but one that is also REJECTED COMPLETELY BUT THE SUMMATION OF ALL EVIDENCE FROM ALL FIELDS OF STUDY!

There isn't any science out there that says God can't exist. There is the pseudoscience, of course, that you subscribe to, I assume.

You talk about how you 'reversed engineered' the universe, but what real study did you do? You only put God into a gap - and you think that is in some way an adequate position? LAUGHABLE!

In light of God, the universe makes sense, and I have a reason to live. He is the answer to the biggest, relevant question out there. You've provided nothing as an alternative answer. Should I listen to you?

You say few things will be answers by us - LAUGHABLE AGAIN! Science and those who support it are the ONLY people getting real answers to the big questions. Look at what science has given us! Then look at what we got from religion during the past 2000 years... FUCK ALL - And you claim religion is going to give us answers! My sides hurt!

You only look at the by-products of bad religion, no wonder you don't know what you're saying.

Not only that, but science gives us these things without asking for complete loyalty and worship, doesn't threaten us with suffering if we don't believe, doesn't demand our respect, doesn't watch over us as an intergalactic dictator - It has every advantage and no disadvantage.

I wouldn't go so far as to say all that.

Well done Ecolox - You are the most stupid individual i have ever encountered on these boards, bar none.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[theVOID]

[quote='theVOID' pid='32777' dateline='1252734337']I never said that, i'm a big fan of science for the reason that it IS getting us answers and moving us forward as a species as opposed to your religion that is doing fuck all.

I like science, but I can't stoop to your level.[/quote]

I'm just telling you that it's stupid to believe in something that has no evidence to support it, regardless of how easy or comforting your belief is.

Let's see some examples bub. Of course I'd ask for those![/quote Wrote:Here you go then, some real answers that have their origins outside of human speculation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fa...e_universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_dimension
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleosynthesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity

Research each of these topics and you will realize than NONE of them rely on God.

[quote='theVOID']I love cosmology, astrophysics, quantum mechanics, evolutionary biology, abiogenisis and the like, these are the topics that give us REAL and MEANINGFUL answers about the universe, life and origins in general, not the thoughts of primitive men.

All the topics you listed have nothing to do with the question I asked - or the speculations you of course participate in... Did you realize that?

No, but they are HOW we are going to find the answers, by asking more and more questions and demanding more and more evidence to satisfy the questions being asked. We are not going to find answers in the ancient myths of god or in the speculative minds of man. The truth is external to man and indifferent to the thoughts of man.

We have a very good idea how life on this planet originated and it wasn't through sky daddy saying 'ta-da', we also have a very good idea of the history of the universe and that also does not require sky daddy, and it's not surprising considering his origins in the mind of primitive men.

But the universe's existence is still a mystery though, right?

It is, and you can imagine as many myths or explanations as you want, all of them are invalid until supported by objective evidence.

Getting an understanding of the origin of life and the universe is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, each scientist in these fields is out there every day picking up the pieces one at a time and making absolutely sure they all fit, there are still a lot of pieces missing for now but we have millions more pieces than the ancient religious originators and as such we are able to see a far more accurate picture of the universe that their limited intellects ever could.

Still not addressing the big question.

You are asking a question to which we have no answers! That has been made perfectly clear by everyone here - we don't know yet. What we do know is 1. The universe works fine without god 2. there is no evidence for his existence 3. god is only one of an infinite number of potential assumptions - all of which are equally likely/unlikely until verified objectively.

Face it ecolox, Religion can offer us nothing else in the way of piecing together the puzzle because all you ever do is sit around contemplating ancient texts written by (and i'll say it again to make it clear) PRIMITIVE MEN rather than actively trying to piece together the puzzle like all the scientists out there are doing every day.

Religion is about figuring out why we exist, in large part... Science has nothing to say about it, and neither do you so far.

Religion does not have the tools to answer these questions!

Religion is not about figuring out why we exist at all, it is about defending the Why you have already been told! The why that originated in ancient society from a feeble attempt to make sense of the universe.

Science is a METHOD - Science has nothing to say about why we exist because it is extremely likely that there is no WHY - the same for us as any object or life in this universe - there is no why, it just is. Does this notion not comfort you? Too bad - Science doesn't seek to make you happy, just to uncover what is!

If you need the fear of god to make you live this life right your mentally unstable, though i doubt you do need him to live a good life, it's just your lifelong brainwashing coming into effect forcing you to attribute everything good to your sky daddy.

Now I'm mentally unstable because I tackle the important questions in life. You people resort to attacks quicker than anyone I know. If you can silence the 'opposition' then you think you've 'won' - yet you never address that big question that we're pushing. I may quit wasting my time with you if you start going crazy and become irrational here...but I can't just give up on what is essential to life as a rational being.

NO - You are mentally unstable because you take an unverified explanation for origins that originated in the speculative minds of primitive men and cling to it because you can't contemplate a world where your comforting delusion does not exist! You aren't tackling these questions, you are avoiding them as best you can by relying on ancient myth!

Silence the opposition? YOU ARE NO OPPOSITION - Science has no opposition because it is a method of verifying truth and truth in any real sense can only be found by methodically investigating the phenomenon in question!

You are not a rational being, you are a deluded fool in denial!

Your big question has been replied to multiple times, but i will do it again. We don't know Why we exist, and that is assuming there is a why at all - which is nothing more than an assumption until verified! What is clear is this; it does not make any difference if we exist for a purpose at all, i will continue to live my life how i want to live it, because i myself, my family and friends, my interests, nature, society, arts, culture, technology, study, truth, fairness and many other things make my life very meaningful - regardless of having no grand purpose.

How can you claim to take the finite life approach when part of your belief is an infinite life of kissing sky daddy's ass?

You can attack my beliefs in these ways, but you will remain ineffective until you offer a real alternative solution.

Here's a better solution:

Big bang -> Universe -> Celestial objects -> Earth -> Abiogenisis -> Evolution -> NOW

There is no purpose to this, no plan, the universe was not created with us in mind, earth was not created for us, evolution did not plan us, so stop believing fairy stories and get of with living your life in whatever way you feel inclined to.

And besides, what purpose do you have in this life as a Christian? To be obedient, to serve, to praise. It can't be about doing good or living well because in your world view Good and evil are only what God says they are, or more correctly, what you have been told to believe god said to some primitive men in the bronze age middle east who, after generations of hearsay, had their interactions with god recorded in a book that you, thousands of years later, still believe is true.

All you try to do is tear down, but I need a place to live. Build me a new house instead if you don't like my old one. But anyway, life in God's universe is very much in sync with His universe - encouraging growth in everyone through good works. I want to do what's good for nature, what's good for myself, what's good for others, etc - to the best of my ability. I love to see growth. I believe destruction is apart from God's nature, and pain is a taste of what being away from God is like. The lasting pleasures in life are good (family, etc), while the short lived pleasures (sex, drugs, etc), when pursued specifically, lead to pain - in a nutshell.

Your house analogy is bullshit - clearly the product of a mind who is scared by the unknown; i pity you.

Who's orders do I follow except God's? The rules I follow are good for growth and sustainability - good for the universe - I will do my best no matter how small I may be.

You are mentally enslaved by this idea of sky daddy! Here's a better solution; Don't follow orders! Don't listen to authority without question! Demand evidence for all claims! Live your own life!

We did not get our sense of right and wrong from religion! Religion got it from US - It is an evolutionary aspect of social animals and ALL social animals display them.

Even the Piranha has one up'ed us in terms of morality; As blood thirsty and viscous as they are they will NEVER hurt their own, something that god's apparent chosen species are unable to do.

Stop being so gullible!

Stop being so useless. If you can't build me a house then I can't let you tear my old one down...sorry.

It is not my job to define your beliefs for you! All i will say is that if you hold any belief of any significance without verifying it as truth through objective means then you are either an idiot or you are so scared of the unknown, so weak minded and Dependant on your sky daddy to give you meaning that you are terrified by the idea that there may be no purpose!

It will become clear to you when you reject the god concept that EVERYTHING you attributed to him as good was something attributed incorrectly - all the good in your life exists independently from this God, so does all the bad - Life is better without silly superstitions forced into the gaps of knowledge.

[Retorth]

Religion is about figuring out why we exist, in large part... Science has nothing to say about it, and neither do you so far.

Religion is a comfort zone for individuals who are weak-minded and have nothing else to turn to.

Now I'm mentally unstable because I tackle the important questions in life. You people resort to attacks quicker than anyone I know. If you can silence the 'opposition' then you think you've 'won' - yet you never address that big question that we're pushing. I may quit wasting my time with you if you start going crazy and become irrational here...but I can't just give up on what is essential to life as a rational being.

You are far from tackling the question. You are sugar-coating it with what you desire to be the truth.

There isn't any science out there that says God can't exist. There is the pseudoscience, of course, that you subscribe to, I assume.

Likewise, there isn't any science that says god can exist. You only consider him to be existing based solely on faith which by my standards is weak to the say the least.

In light of God, the universe makes sense, and I have a reason to live. He is the answer to the biggest, relevant question out there. You've provided nothing as an alternative answer. Should I listen to you?

Of course the choice ultimately is yours. The point of this debate is for you to show us, as all other theists have miserably failed to do, how a god can exist. Your sole objective it seems is to attack our views of life which is quite redundant imo.

You only look at the by-products of bad religion, no wonder you don't know what you're saying.

The by-products of bad religion far outweigh any possibly good that religion has accomplished, therefore making any good clearly redundant.

Not only that, but science gives us these things without asking for complete loyalty and worship, doesn't threaten us with suffering if we don't believe, doesn't demand our respect, doesn't watch over us as an intergalactic dictator - It has every advantage and no disadvantage.

I wouldn't go so far as to say all that.

Explain please.

[Lifebepraised]

Arcanus, you make it sound like Atheists have no just reason to be an Atheist. Just becuase someone chooses to make decisions based on fact and reason versus a book written by old men doesnt give them this idea being "stupid" as it we're. A man who can stand up and say "I believe not in god, but in Humankind, Life, Science, and Reason. And although i speak not for the entire Atheist community, i can speak for myself and those who follow the ideas of Life.

Life meaning to live. If "god" wants you to live a life of purity, then why has he created hatrid. And you may say Humans created hatrid. I say why has "god" created humans. If you can answer that question logically i would give you a pat on the back. But there is no answer to that question. Those types of questions are why mankind created religion. Its an excuse. A scapegoat, if you will, that people hide behind. Notice Christians and Atheists have not an answer to the question that plagues our minds. What created the earth and why? The only difference between us is Atheists try to figure out these questions and Christians have an omnipotent "god" to hide behind.

If you win the lottery don't thank "god", ask how the fuck did i end up with the winning odds against the other billions of people.

As you said earlier "(5) for nearly all of those, the Christianity they abandoned was a fundamentalist sort"... Fundamental means - of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts. Christianity is based off of the bible and to Christians the bible relates to essential structure, function, or facts. So in fact the only way to live as a christian would be fundamentally.

Be these facts you live by or ignore they still remain facts made by a Human with the ability to think on his own without the restrictions of a "god" or religion. Hopefully you read this whole thing and do not skim over certain parts and base an arguement on bits and pieces. Because all im searching for is a logical arguement based on facts and not theories. And i do not contradict myself. The Big Bang Theory is just a theory that i will not argue about. A theory is just a useless excuse, nothing more, nothing less. I believe in the human mind no theory can shake that idea.

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Yes mistakes we're made in the Post i created. Comment not on them but on the whole idea it stands for.

[ecolox]

Religion has been "dealing" with it by spreading false testimony through text that nobody can verify.]/quote]

What religion has claimed that faith is not involved?

[quote='Retorth']How can you be so sure that the information it contains is infallible when you cannot even prove the god that exists in that text in the first place?

The big question looms, and I answer it to the best of my ability - through faith I live it. I cannot require infallible proof for things - in order that those things can be used in my life. If I had that requirement then I would be forced to live with nothing.

It's like putting on a blindfold and walking around in a dark cave. Why not just take the blindfold off and use a torchlight? You just blind yourself further to only end up smacking into walls sooner or later.

I'm not sure how this analogy applies to my usage of the best answer I can find to the big question. It seems that you are self-blind-folded in life through your denial in regards to this hugely significant question.

Ace and I answered your question regarding the meaning of life in our perspective already but you keep shunning it because it doesn't suit your religious persona.

It has nothing to do with my "religious persona" and everything to do with your failure to address the big question.

You keep asking the same question over and over again seemingly in hopes that we would go "Aw crap you're right, life really means nothing without a supernatural being to spy on us constantly" but that will never happen. Face it, god doesn't exist. Pray for hours, months, or days but you will still have to walk to the kitchen to get a drink. You still have to work hard to earn a living. You still have to walk to the bathroom to take a poop. No amount of being holy changes anything in life.

Yes, because you fail to answer it every time, and it is an essential question. Face it, you don't have a clue as to what your talking about...(i.e. prove that God doesn't exist). I don't pray to make my life more convenient, in fact...because I pray my life is less convenient. Because I care what's going on with myself and the world in relation to God. Being holy means working hardest for the best reasons - and that does change everything in one's life.

Last but not least, if your god is so powerful and almighty, why is it that you are failing so miserably in these forums?

My success is positively/directly related to your righteousness, I guess.