Christians

[Ryft]

No, I do not affirm a belief that the universe is billions of years old. I am no scientist. This is what science has announced to the world. However, I much rather listen to science then to a book of fables, pardon my straightforwardness in this statement.

So science announces to the world, on the best evidence available, that the universe is billions of years old. And your response is, "Sorry, I do not believe it. However, I enjoy listening to this science." That is so extraordinarily bizarre it must be wrong. Clarify?

[Retorth]

I never said "Sorry, I do not believe it". I said "I do not affirm a belief". Now you're just putting words in my mouth lol

To affirm it would mean that I maintain that it is true which I obviously can not. I will accept it with an open mind because it is science but as I said earlier, I'm no scientist so there obviously is no way for me to go and verify the facts myself.

And if you want to compare science of the earth to faith in god, then I obviously would much rather place my eggs in the basket of the former.

[Ryft]

I knew it had to be an equivocation. I tried hard to pose the question in a way that would prevent your doing so, but you managed anyhow. So let's try this again. Science announces to the world, on the best evidence available, that the universe is billions of years old. You either believe (give intellectual accent; accept as true) its findings or you do not.

[Retorth]

What do you mean when you say "give intellectual accent"?

[Ryft]

You either believe (give intellectual accent; accept as true) its findings or you do not.

Uh... give intellectual assent; believe; accept as true.

[Retorth]

Ah I see, my apologies and thank you for the clarification.

As I said above:

I will accept it with an open mind because it is science but as I said earlier, I'm no scientist so there obviously is no way for me to go and verify the facts myself.

My answer still stands.

[Ryft]

As I said above, "I will accept it with an open mind because it is science but as I said earlier, I'm no scientist so there obviously is no way for me to go and verify the facts myself." My answer still stands.

Interesting. I take it, then, the problem is that, despite the astounding scope and strength of the evidence, science has been unable to produce what you consider infallible evidence. Please forgive my incredulous tone; I am passionate about and fascinated by cosmology and astrophysics, two of my favourite arenas of science that I have an insatiable appetite for reading about. So I'm just a little bit dumbfounded that not even this area of science, despite the robust mathematics and extensive observational evidence that supports it, they still have not been able to produce what you would consider "absolutely trustworthy" evidence whereby you could say in a public forum, "I believe X."

So tell me, Retorth, what infallible or "absolutely trustworthy" evidence looks like. Because right now it seems you're confirming my earlier suspicion that you don't even know what you are talking about. It seems not even the likes of Einstein and Hawking can attain the standard you set, so tell me what infallible evidence looks like. What is it you need in order to confidently say in a public forum, "I believe X" (such as the universe being 13.7 billion years old).

[Retorth]

I see what you are getting at. Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly. I apologize for my inability to explain things as explicitly.

I am not one to jump to conclusions and make assumptions that "X is true" or that "X is not true". I do not doubt what science has proven and demonstrated. I will agree with science and say "Ok the universe is 13.7 billion years old".

It is always safer to take in knowledge from all directions and learn but not run your entire life by it. My "standard" as you call it, doesn't exist. I do not have a "standard". I just keep an open mind.

As I said earlier, if you want to compare science and religion, well, you know which basket I'd rather put my eggs in.

[Ryft]

It is always safer to take in knowledge from all directions and learn but not run your entire life by it.

But I am not talking about how you run your life, Retorth. You're taking this to levels far beyond my meaning. I am talking about whether or not you believe some x (such as the age of the universe); there are any number of things you can believe that don't have any bearing on how you run your life.

Do you believe the universe is 13.7 years old?

[Darwinian]

Do you?

P.S. T-Shirt on the way