Nothingness

[Norfolk And Chance]

I am a Muslim and student of philosophy and comparative religions. I am doing a research work and part of my activities is to surf on different religious sites in order to read people’s religious and non-religious opinions about God. I had been surfing on different religious sites like “Reasonable Faith, Christian site run by Dr. William Craig”, “IRF, Muslim site run by Dr. Zakir Naik”, and some other religious sites including Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Jainism, etc.

It is something shameful what I find on the “atheist” site that I have not met on any religious site. It is the use of extreme vulgar language and disrespect to each other. We can argue on each other’s point of view but argument doesn’t mean use of language that is reprehensible and inhumane.

Come back and complain about nasty-wasty sweary words when you fuckers can learn to stop blowing yourselves up, stop beheading westerners, stop mistreating women, and stop trying to force your insane beliefs onto the rest of the world.

[Mister Agenda]

Not in the first post and not in any of my responses I used any humiliating words but you guys have took full advantage to put the nose of a Muslim in real shit.

How quickly you resort to gutter language. You think it's wrong to say such things, but we don't. Say what you will about our language, we're not being hypocrites about it like you're being.

By using freedom of speech, I have put all my thoughts with honesty without any disguise. As I understood, you felt humiliated from my post because maybe:

1. I am saying true that this site truly contain disrespect to human beings on the foundation of anti-religious attitude or

An insult.

2. You guys don’t have proper answer to my question or my question is far above your anticipation levels. To avoid that question you have took attacking strategy and tried your level best to kill my morals or

An insult, and by the way, I've noticed you prefer to engage with people who use 'naughty' words rather than substantive responses to your posts. We actually haven't been trying at all to kill your morals, but they seem to be very fragile and it looks like we broke them accidentally, given that we seem to have you using 'bad' words yourself now. As I said in a polite post which you ignored, rough language is often used to test character. You have failed that test.

3. Disrespect is what atheism is all about

An insult. You deliberately provoke people in order to get responses that confirm your prejudices. Like someone saying Muslims are easily agitated while waving around a sign depicting Mohammed dropping bombs on children.

I may be correct or I may be wrong but I feel firm in my opinion specially after receiving your insane responses. If you have superiority or inferiority complexes then I am not to be blamed for that.

You can only be blamed for your antagonistic manner and whininess concerning everyone not speaking the way you think they should. Complain to your mommy that the mean old atheists aren't being nice enough to you, we only want to talk to grown-ups here.

I have demonstrated real human attitude against your real abusive behaviour.

You started talking about shit as soon as we started to get on your nerves, you hypocrite.

Fortunately, I have two literate responses on this site, which are encouraging. These gentlemen seems to be learned people as they have not gone crazy from my post. A learned man can take any critique with patience because he is confident on his knowledge.

But instead of engaging them and ignoring the digs, you engage those who take potshots at you and ignore the serious responses.

Normally, if a person tries to run away from the field he takes support from scandal. I am one and alone man firmly standing in front of you guys and has courage to take intense pounding over my head without any reason.

You're boasting that you have courage because, when insulted over the internet, you stay and whine about it instead of running away? A regular hero, you are.

That is because I am confident that I can take your questions about Islam, Christianity, and somewhat Judaism. I was prepared for discussions over phenomenon like nihilism, eternity, logic, transcendentalism, and science. Regretfully I have to say again vocabulary of most of the members on this site is limited to FUCKING, SHITTING, DOG, ASSHOLE.

Well, those are apparently the only people you want to talk to. You chose the topic. You get what you ask for. The only one keeping you from talking about eternity or transcendentalism is you.

If you want to prove Islam, Christianity, Judaism to be wrong then talk with arguments not with abuses. Give your reason why you don’t believe and I will give my reason why I believe. By using abusive language, you are only showing your level of intellect as well as you demonstrate your weakness to protect your ideas.

One reason I don't believe in Islam is because grown Muslim men are too delicate to read a word they don't like without whining about it. They fail a basic test of character: being above whininess.

I still have my question open for all you guys. If you want to ask anything on religion then feel free to ask. I am not from those Muslims who become abusive like you guys when they don’t have answer.

You'll never get anywhere as long as you keep insulting us. You're demonstrating that you are not serious enough to take seriously. You want to dwell on how polite you are and how rude we are. As long as you want to wallow in that, that's where you'll stay.

If I don’t know something I don’t feel shy to expose my lack of knowledge. If I can learn something useful from you guys then I would be happy for that. Teach me atheism by reasoning but please no more lessons of (FUCKING, SHITTING, HOLES ETC.)

We don't want you to be an atheist. We're not interested in de-converting you. Stay a Muslim. We don't need anyone who has to control what other people say before they can say whatever it is you really want to say. You've gotten off to such an awful start that it's probably not worth it for you to stick around and try to repair your reputation as a sniveler.

One of our moderators, Rayaan is a Muslim. He's a class act, and that's how we treat him. Look to him if you want to see someone actually being the kind of person you think you are.

[Harris]

NOTHINGNESS is an identity just like SPACE is an identity. However, to what this NOTHINGNESS is pointing. If this NOTHINGNESS has existence, at least in form of word/language, it should points to something or some idea. Would you like to put some light over NOTHINGNESS. This is an interesting point that I am keen to learn from you. You are an atheist who doesn’t believe in the existence of God. In your opinion, what can be the substitution of God? If there is no God then there should be NOTHINGNESS. So what do you think of this NOTHINGNESS?

I understand you are talking from a philosophy POV. I'm no philosopher. I can only give you a physicist POV. So bear with me.

Now, you are comparing nothingness with space. In GR, that would be incorrect. In relativistic classical physics, time is another dimension with space, why we use space-time (sometimes without a hypen), and space-time can have dynamical properties. That means it does interact with matter/energy.

Secondly, if you mean nothingness is vacuum energy, then it is something. So continuing in labelling it as "nothingness" will bring confusion.

You are also asking, Is there a substitution for God? I'm not sure if I understand your question. For instance, why would there be a necessity for a substitution? It could be that the universe always existed, and what we are witnessing is its present state. At some earlier times, it might have been in a completely different state, and our job is to find that out. And so you have many theories on the market trying to answer that - cyclic theories, multiverse theories, fecund theories, conformal theories, to name a few. Which one will prevail, only time will tell as we will require new discoveries to filter out the incorrect ones.

At present, the Big Bang Theory is the prevailing paradigm. But it has deficiencies, the primary one being that it has a singularity. A singularity is a mathematical entity, not a real one. If it is present in a theory, it's a red flag that either the theory is not applied correctly, or it is invalid at a certain scale. In the case of the BBT, we think that we need a new theory that will combine Relativity with Quantum Mechanics, as none of them can deal with the Planck scale. And so this is another thing that physicists are trying to work out.

"Now, you are comparing nothingness with space. In GR, that would be incorrect. In relativistic classical physics, time is another dimension with space, why we use space-time (sometimes without a hypen), and space-time can have dynamical properties. That means it does interact with matter/energy."

In my previous response, I have clearly mentioned for me, space and nothingness are two different entities. You can check my previous response I had given many quotes of different authors to back up my idea. I never tried to compare space with nothingness.
Therefore, your physical point of view is a perfect match to my philosophical point of view.

"Secondly, if you mean nothingness is vacuum energy, then it is something. So continuing in labelling it as "nothingness" will bring confusion."

I don’t mean nothingness is vacuum or vacuum energy. I again ask you to refer my previous response especially the quotations that I have provided.

"You are also asking, Is there a substitution for God? I'm not sure if I understand your question. For instance, why would there be a necessity for a substitution? It could be that the universe always existed, and what we are witnessing is its present state. At some earlier times, it might have been in a completely different state, and our job is to find that out. And so you have many theories on the market trying to answer that - cyclic theories, multiverse theories, fecund theories, conformal theories, to name a few. Which one will prevail, only time will tell as we will require new discoveries to filter out the incorrect ones."

Certainly multiverse theory can be possible but I totally disagree and factually, it is incorrect if someone tries to say that multiverse is eternal in past. It is incorrect because no mathematically consistent and empirically adequate physical model of the universe is capable of being extrapolated past infinity. The Lankan theorem shows if even there is a multiverse it too must have had a beginning at some time in the finite past. All the evidences say there is a beginning of the universe and there is no evidence about the universe is beginning less.
It seems for many atheist physicists multiverse is some kind of a substitute of God. It is their kind of doing metaphysics without using the letter G.
Multiverse theory is an attempt to a marriage between string theory and inflationary cosmology both of which have extremely speculative boundary area of science. But the important thing is even given the inflating Universe that uses string theory for its fundamental physics, such a universe still cannot be eternal in the past.
When you say Multiverse is eternal that really highlights atheists believe that there has to be something eternal because universe can’t come from nothing and you seem to agree with that.

"At present, the Big Bang Theory is the prevailing paradigm. But it has deficiencies, the primary one being that it has a singularity. A singularity is a mathematical entity, not a real one. If it is present in a theory, it's a red flag that either the theory is not applied correctly, or it is invalid at a certain scale. In the case of the BBT, we think that we need a new theory that will combine Relativity with Quantum Mechanics, as none of them can deal with the Planck scale. And so this is another thing that physicists are trying to work out."

It’s a physical fact that quantum vacuum is not stable and because it is not stable it can’t persist for infinite time. It is I think a sufficient argument that quantum vacuum state is itself has a beginning, that’s why universe is not infinitely old, and big bang theory is one of the more stable theory among other models available on universe.

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Do you find it a just act to retaliate a person simply because he is Muslim and some other Muslim have done something wrong with you. If Hitler has killed Jews does that means now Jews have to take retaliation with innocent people because they are Christian?

No and I also didn't even claim that I do this either, I didn't say muslims called me kuffar scum and a moron and stupid and so therefore I do the same to them.

---

It is something shameful what I find on the “atheist” site that I have not met on any religious site.

You said this, I am saying that contrary to this I have often found muslims to be very aggressive and insulting towards atheists or people who don't believe what they believe in general.

I thought that an atheist is the most cool minded person but here I have find you guys showing much higher aggression than any Muslim culprit.

[Kayenneh]

I thought that an atheist is the most cool minded person but here I have find you guys showing much higher aggression than any Muslim culprit.

Isn't it quite obvious by now that you have no idea whatsoever what an atheist is?

[Darkstar]

I thought that an atheist is the most cool minded person but here I have find you guys showing much higher aggression than any Muslim culprit.

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[Baalzebutt]

I thought that an atheist is the most cool minded person but here I have find you guys showing much higher aggression than any Muslim culprit.

Harris, look at it from our point of view: You are a muslim, coming on here (an ATHEIST board) spewing uncalled-for and insulting bullshit in your first post. You wish to argue some point which has been addresses ad infinitum on this forum already and you are so set in your beliefs that you absolutely will not, under any circumstances, entertain any idea or explanation that opposes your current beliefs.

You seem to think that, by some magic, you are the first person to bring these radical ideas to light and that we poor, knuckle-headed atheists will suddenly see the light and bow to your sheep-fucking prophet and his backward ideas.

As for aggression, please indicate to me the last time an atheist group shot a little girl for going to school or flew a fucking plane into a building. Tell when we atheists called for the killing of innocents for saying something against atheism. Show me how we beat and oppress our women because they are women.

You got some serious balls to come on here and say we are the aggressive ones, you fat fucking prick.

[Harris]

Look at my post and responses open-minded. Don’t be conservative. Its not me who had showed extreme attitude so far. Because you guys have a formula “look at Muslim not as man but animal” and this hinders you to look what is correct and what is wrong. I ask you to go all over my responses with a cool mind and try to analyse how I have responded to all of yours attacks.

You don't know what I feel. You don't know what's in my heart, or that of any other person here, until you ask them. But you think you do, and you think the lies you've been told about atheists are true, so you project them onto these people. I can assure you that I do go over your responses with a cool mind,
and what I see is a lot of stereotyping of atheists in order to put them down, and a lot of very tired anti-atheist cliches. Moreover, atheists have seen the same "criticisms" from other religious people, and they are almost always the same, so it's patently obvious that these "criticisms" are manufactured by religious people and spread with the purpose of opposing non-religious people. (We get the "atheists are foul mouthed" whine multiple times each year.)

Atheists spend a lot of time researching the facts of religion so that they can know what they are talking about when they criticize religion. Religious people generally don't care about the facts of atheism, so they often just make up lies that sound good in order to put atheists down.

You don't want people to stereotype you as a Muslim? Try not stereotyping other people for their atheism. Or better yet, try not swallowing every anti-atheist lie you've been taught.

It's not you who showed extreme attitude? That's bullshit. Your first post was extreme. Is it your contention that your first words to another should be criticism?
If you were introduced to some Amish people, would you open up by telling them you thought they were stupid for not embracing electrical conveniences and dancing?
Do you introduce yourself to someone new by saying, "Hi. My name is Harris. And by the way, that dress makes you look fat." Of course you don't. So why is it appropriate here?
(Beyond the fact that your criticisms are false or misleading.)

My response to you is as cool as it is pointless, as I know people like you are too wrapped up in their biases, and too stupid, to ever climb down and experience what's really going on around them.

I'm not offended because you are a Muslim. I'm offended because you are stupidly repeating hateful lies about the people I love in order to spread your religion.

Thank you for posting a detailed explanation. Your post reveal something on me that up till now I have not understood. Instead of explaining let me give you some facts about me. Maybe these facts will make you guys understand something that you might not understand till now.

This is my first ever chance to have some discussions with atheist. Before this place I know only one atheist who was French and he was the real nice gentleman. We were together we were friends and we were discussing about religion and atheism without having any complexes in between us. Sometimes I was pushing him to the cornor sometimes I was in his position but we have never ever left the boundaries of ethics no matter how intense were our argumentation. Frankly speaking that guy has put on me a real nice impression about the atheist.

From your post above and few other post of similar nature reveal on me one fact that religious people are treating with you guys in exactly the same way you are treating with me. Don't take my words hard on you but to me it seems most of you guys are victom of some kind of a complex.

I am unaware of what has happened with you and I was all this time trying to sort out what exactly happened! I have gone through my post on and on and on but found exactly the same what I have told you that is these are my first impressions which I very open mindedly exposed to you supposing that you are broad minded like my French friend.

Believe me or not I have met no one in my life who have said something bad about atheist. For me you are first human beings afterwords you are engineers, doctors, etc. on the basis that we are human beings I believe in communication rather than fighting.

One thing you have to understand there is no single community in the world where every member of that community is a devil or an angel. You will find always a mixture of attitudes. Let us say you have 1000 bad experiences while debating with theist. Based on that 1001 guy might be different.

What I'm trying to say here is give a chance to a speaker to speak everything in order to understand what exactly in his mind. Like in my first post I had given an example of a little boy who shouts and never try to listen and of course it is the boy who is losing not the speaker.

you people have took me as a wrong guy. What you are saying about yourselves exactly the same way I can say about myself. I am talking about the mass media. Mass media is doing its utmost to portray all Muslims as culprit and most of the naive people do take these Muslims as real culprit. I have not heard in years anything against atheist on the level of mass media.

In short I can say not you were the only people who have bad stories to tell other people might have even worse stories to tell.

I am not a political man and don't want to be. Main purpose of my appearance on this site is to have academic style of discussion. I did not know here most of the people are sensitive due to some bad experiences in dealing with others.

Anyway, I am here and facing all of you without having any complex in my mind. I am not superior to you and I am not inferior than you. In the same way I look at you.

---

I thought that an atheist is the most cool minded person but here I have find you guys showing much higher aggression than any Muslim culprit.

Harris, look at it from our point of view: You are a muslim, coming on here (an ATHEIST board) spewing uncalled-for and insulting bullshit in your first post. You wish to argue some point which has been addresses ad infinitum on this forum already and you are so set in your beliefs that you absolutely will not, under any circumstances, entertain any idea or explanation that opposes your current beliefs.

You seem to think that, by some magic, you are the first person to bring these radical ideas to light and that we poor, knuckle-headed atheists will suddenly see the light and bow to your sheep-fucking prophet and his backward ideas.

As for aggression, please indicate to me the last time an atheist group shot a little girl for going to school or flew a fucking plane into a building. Tell when we atheists called for the killing of innocents for saying something against atheism. Show me how we beat and oppress our women because they are women.

You got some serious balls to come on here and say we are the aggressive ones, you fat fucking prick.

I know what Stalin and Mao did, you collect entire history of Muslim even then it will not come even near what these two guys have done. And don't forget about women and children who are dying on daily basis in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Palestine, in Kashmir, in the name of war against terror.

[Darkstar]

This is my first ever chance to have some discussions with atheist.

And you started it like this...

From your post above and few other post of similar nature reveal on me one fact that religious people are treating with you guys in exactly the same way you are treating with me. Don't take my words part but to me it seems most of you guys are victom of some kind of a complex.

Martyr complex? Oh wait, that's you...

I am unaware of what is happening with you and I was all this time trying to sort out what exactly happened! I have gone through my post on and on and on but found exactly the same what I have told you that is these are my first impressions which I very open mindedly exposed to you supposing that you are broad minded like my French friend.

He's your friend. You know him. If you had insulted right off the bat him when the two of you first met, he probably wouldn't have reacted as well. Or maybe he's just too nice, and will take abuse...like me

Believe me or not I have met no one in my life who have said something bad about atheist.

Then why did you come in here so judgmental?

For me you are first human beings afterwords you are engineers, doctors, etc. Likewise, on the basis that we are human beings I believe in communication rather then fighting.

What do you consider fighting? Was the 70% of your OP devoted to insulting all atheists "communication" or "fighting"?

One thing you have to understand there is no single community in the world where every member of that community is a devil or an angel. You will find always a mixture of attitudes. Let us say you have 1000 bad experiences while debating with theist. Based on that 1001 guy might be different.

What I'm trying to say here is give a chance to a speaker to speak everything in order to understand what exactly in his mind. Like in my first post I had given an example of a little boy who shouts and never try to listen and of course it is the boy who is losing not the speaker.

*Wonders when Harris will realize he is the little boy*

Or you people have took me as the wrong guy. What you are saying about yourselves exactly the same way I can say about myself.

That you are a quick and harsh judge, but are unable to take criticism yourself?

I am talking about the mass media. Mass media is doing its utmost to portray all Muslims as culprit and most of the naive people do take these Muslims as real culprit. I have not heard in years anything against atheist on the level what I am hearing about the Muslims.

Do you still think people are reacting harshly because you are a Muslim?

I am not a political man and don't want to be. Main purpose of my appearance on this site is to have academic style of discussion.

Could have fooled me. Most people who have opened with an OP like yours did not have that same goal in mind.

I did not know here most of the people are sensitive due to some bad experiences in dealing with others.

You seem pretty sensitive yourself, being so up in arms about swearing.

Anyway, I am here and facing all of you without having any complex in my mind. I am not superior to you and I am not inferior than you. In the same way I look at you.

The "complex" of which you speak...what is it? I somehow get the idea that you are trying to insult us even more now. Lucky for you, I'm not even mad (it's almost impossible to make me angry).

---

I know what Stalin and Mao did, you collect entire history of Muslim even then it will not come even near what these two guys have done. And don't forget about women and children who are dying on daily basis in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Palestine, in Kashmir, in the name of war against terror.

Thing is, Stalin and Mao didn't kill people because of atheist teachings. There are no atheist teachings...

[Harris]

This is my first ever chance to have some discussions with atheist.

And you started it like this...

From your post above and few other post of similar nature reveal on me one fact that religious people are treating with you guys in exactly the same way you are treating with me. Don't take my words part but to me it seems most of you guys are victom of some kind of a complex.

Martyr complex? Oh wait, that's you...

I am unaware of what is happening with you and I was all this time trying to sort out what exactly happened! I have gone through my post on and on and on but found exactly the same what I have told you that is these are my first impressions which I very open mindedly exposed to you supposing that you are broad minded like my French friend.

He's your friend. You know him. If you had insulted right off the bat him when the two of you first met, he probably wouldn't have reacted as well. Or maybe he's just too nice, and will take abuse...like me

Believe me or not I have met no one in my life who have said something bad about atheist.

Then why did you come in here so judgmental?

For me you are first human beings afterwords you are engineers, doctors, etc. Likewise, on the basis that we are human beings I believe in communication rather then fighting.

What do you consider fighting? Was the 70% of your OP devoted to insulting all atheists "communication" or "fighting"?

One thing you have to understand there is no single community in the world where every member of that community is a devil or an angel. You will find always a mixture of attitudes. Let us say you have 1000 bad experiences while debating with theist. Based on that 1001 guy might be different.

What I'm trying to say here is give a chance to a speaker to speak everything in order to understand what exactly in his mind. Like in my first post I had given an example of a little boy who shouts and never try to listen and of course it is the boy who is losing not the speaker.

*Wonders when Harris will realize he is the little boy*

Or you people have took me as the wrong guy. What you are saying about yourselves exactly the same way I can say about myself.

That you are a quick and harsh judge, but are unable to take criticism yourself?

I am talking about the mass media. Mass media is doing its utmost to portray all Muslims as culprit and most of the naive people do take these Muslims as real culprit. I have not heard in years anything against atheist on the level what I am hearing about the Muslims.

Do you still think people are reacting harshly because you are a Muslim?

I am not a political man and don't want to be. Main purpose of my appearance on this site is to have academic style of discussion.

Could have fooled me. Most people who have opened with an OP like yours did not have that same goal in mind.

I did not know here most of the people are sensitive due to some bad experiences in dealing with others.

You seem pretty sensitive yourself, being so up in arms about swearing.

Anyway, I am here and facing all of you without having any complex in my mind. I am not superior to you and I am not inferior than you. In the same way I look at you.

The "complex" of which you speak...what is it? I somehow get the idea that you are trying to insult us even more now. Lucky for you, I'm not even mad (it's almost impossible to make me angry).

---

I know what Stalin and Mao did, you collect entire history of Muslim even then it will not come even near what these two guys have done. And don't forget about women and children who are dying on daily basis in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Palestine, in Kashmir, in the name of war against terror.

Thing is, Stalin and Mao didn't kill people because of atheist teachings. There are no atheist teachings...

Did Hitler kill because Christianity is teaching to kill people?

[JesusHChrist]

Did Hitler kill because Christianity is teaching to kill people?

Read "On the Jews and their Lies" by Martin Luther as Hitler's model for how to deal with Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6]