Abortions

[Violet]

You are not the carpenter, you are 1 of the 2 components of the plywood.

You are not the gun, you are 1 part of the metal alloy.

That fetus needs you until it is self sufficient, that is not what a limb is.

Alright in your analogy: I am what generates the plywood. The other component simply started my generating by adding the missing ingredient

??? Who said anything about me being a gun??? Must be a misunderstanding :S I don't understand the second one. :S

A limb needs me just as much as a fetus: without me they would both be lifeless masses of organic matter Eventually, a fetus could become a life of its own after about 9 months of being a part of my body... this is true. So could my arm with enough technological advances

[Eilonnwy]

Leo, you bring up a good point about the father, which isn't an easy issue. Hence I support an effort to reduce unwanted pregnancies so not only to prevent the mother from suffering, but the father as well.

I think what it comes down to, though, is it's a woman's body and she should have control over that. I don't have the right to force or deny you a medical procedure, so I don't think the father has the right either. It might some unfair, but it's the woman's body. It's far too easy for a man to say "Fuck this" and leave.

[leo-rcc]

I know the issue isn't easy, I used to think pretty much like Binny did, and I can show you posts on other forums to prove it. However after a discussion much harder fought than this one I really had to rethink my position in this and came to the conclusion that the issue is also a serious equal rights infringement. I understand the reasoning behind the infringment, but that is exactly why I don't just flatout say it is right or wrong. It is not as cut and dry as some think it is.

[Craveman]

I am pro-abortion, especially in the case where a girl gets raped. Also, abortions are a better option that raising an unwanted child. The child is in effect getting punished by his/her parents because of their choice. The child might be living for the rest of his/her life in poverty, might get abused, neglected or not be able to get a good job because of lack of funds or because of bad rolemodels.

I know that people should be more careful but there is this thing called alcohol you see...Alcohol is the "parent" of many babies. People like to have fun and while this is the case, mistakes will happen. Abortion is a way out and should be taken if the baby is not wanted or if the parents are too young or can't afford it. The down side to this is that abortions could lead to serious mental stress and women should be told in advance what to expect.

As for men not having any say in an abortion, I don't fully agree with it. Yes, ultimately it is the mom's decision but the dad should at least be told. What if it went the other way? What if the dad suggested an abortion and the woman don't want to? The dad is then going to have to pay for the child for most of his life which is not fair. If the woman wanted the child in the first place so should take care of it herself.

I believe that both parties should have a say in a healthy relationship. If the woman needs to have the abortion then ultimately the husband should support her. I know that unfortunately this is not always the case. Some men might object because of religious reasons...

[leo-rcc]

You are not the carpenter, you are 1 of the 2 components of the plywood.

You are not the gun, you are 1 part of the metal alloy.

That fetus needs you until it is self sufficient, that is not what a limb is.

Alright in your analogy: I am what generates the plywood. The other component simply started my generating by adding the missing ingredient

No, the combination of both are what generates the plywood. 50% of the components to produce it (dna) is brought in by the man. Women need men just as much for babies as men need women.

A limb needs me just as much as a fetus: without me they would both be lifeless masses of organic matter

Neither your limb or a fetus is lifeless. it's ability to sustain that life by itself however changes over time for the fetus, not for the hand.

Eventually, a fetus could become a life of its own after about 9 months of being a part of my body...

Could be much less, third trimester is already enough. Not advisable, but possible.

[Violet]

I know the issue isn't easy, I used to think pretty much like Binny did, and I can show you posts on other forums to prove it. However after a discussion much harder fought than this one I really had to rethink my position in this and came to the conclusion that the issue is also a serious equal rights infringement. I understand the reasoning behind the infringment, but that is exactly why I don't just flatout say it is right or wrong. It is not as cut and dry as some think it is.

'Right' and 'wrong' are entirely subjective. I feel it is wrong for a man to demand for rights to part of a woman's body simply because he had sex with her (and got her pregnant)... wether that man be a rapist, a polygamist, or a 'worthy?' individual. It isn't so 'cut and dry' in the last of those... but the only thing that the 'worthy?' man has a 'right' to is to get a surrogate for the child.

In the case of this individual, it is more of a wood supplier who gave his wood to the carpenter on the condition that something would be carved from it (and the carpenter accepted)... and if that condition will not be met because the carpenter chooses to not make something from the wood: he has a right to get his wood back.

[leo-rcc]

again with the fucking rapist.

The rapist broke the law, he has no right whatsoever to make any claim. That makes it a legal issue not a civil rights issue.

As for "worthy", that man did no more wrong than the woman did, so what makesyou think he is any more unworthy than the woman?

In your mind you need to rationalize so much to equate a prospect of new life as a limb, completely ignoring the fact that you do net get your limbs from your partner but you grow them on your own, in the womb of your mother. You need to compartmentalize the idea of a life growing inside a womans body as not alive, even though it is a scientific fact that in the third trimester it senses its surroundings and has the ability to feel pain just as much as you do.

[Violet]

You are not the carpenter, you are 1 of the 2 components of the plywood.

You are not the gun, you are 1 part of the metal alloy.

That fetus needs you until it is self sufficient, that is not what a limb is.

Alright in your analogy: I am what generates the plywood. The other component simply started my generating by adding the missing ingredient

No, the combination of both are what generates the plywood. 50% of the components to produce it (dna) is brought in by the man. Women need men just as much for babies as men need women.

The missing half of the ingredients then. If you could incubate and support a growing fetus in a laboratory: it would be equal rights.

But in using the mother as a 9 month carrier: she has not only 9 months more rights than the father... but she has the right of it growing inside her as a part of her.

A limb needs me just as much as a fetus: without me they would both be lifeless masses of organic matter

Neither your limb or a fetus is lifeless. it's ability to sustain that life by itself however changes over time for the fetus, not for the hand.

I was referring to 'lifeless' in the sense that it does not sustain itself. Once the fetus can sustain itself: it is just a parasitic lifeform until it is ejected by the mother. An abortion isn't murder until a growing baby is fully capable of being born... until then it is no more 'alive' to me than is my hand.

Eventually, a fetus could become a life of its own after about 9 months of being a part of my body...

Could be much less, third trimester is already enough. Not advisable, but possible.

True to that point. I was referring to the natural birth cycle with that statement

[Eilonnwy]

I know the issue isn't easy, I used to think pretty much like Binny did, and I can show you posts on other forums to prove it. However after a discussion much harder fought than this one I really had to rethink my position in this and came to the conclusion that the issue is also a serious equal rights infringement. I understand the reasoning behind the infringment, but that is exactly why I don't just flatout say it is right or wrong. It is not as cut and dry as some think it is.

Yeah, I agree. I think the father should have some input (Of course ignoring extreme instances like rape. It's obvious the father has no say there.) But when it comes down to it, I think the final decision should rest with the woman. The idea that a man could chose for a woman tips the scales way to far in the other direction, and it's not so simple to get people to agree 100%. I think the fact that it's the woman's body gives her the rightful edge.

[Violet]

again with the fucking rapist.

The rapist broke the law, he has no right whatsoever to make any claim. That makes it a legal issue not a civil rights issue.

They have that right in the laws of Islamic countries. Rape is a civil rights issue just as slavery is a civil rights issue. It's against the law here now... but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen more now than at the height of the American slave trade.

'Rights' are completely subjective... as are morals... as is pretty much everything (if not everything?).

As for "worthy", that man did no more wrong than the woman did, so what makesyou think he is any more unworthy than the woman?

By 'worthy', I am referring to a man who has been in a relationship with the woman for enough time to make him more 'worthy' of having a claim to a child more than a male rapist. Did I say anywhere that either of them 'did wrong'?

In your mind you need to rationalize so much to equate a prospect of new life as a limb, completely ignoring the fact that you do net get your limbs from your partner but you grow them on your own, in the womb of your mother. You need to compartmentalize the idea of a life growing inside a womans body as not alive, even though it is a scientific fact that in the third trimester it senses its surroundings and has the ability to feel pain just as much as you do.

I understand the gist of what you were saying with the paragraph, but I should also think that I got my limbs from my father's materials as well as my mother's

I view it a lot like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger%27s_cat , to be honest I don't think hypothetical people are anything worthy of my consideration until they are for fact: people... or for fact: not people. I 'compartmentalize?' it as being 'not yet alive' because i do not register its ability to 'feel' (see the sense of touch?) and otherwise perceive as anything more alive than my computer. Also, it isn't a person until it has personality, and it certainly isn't 'alive' to me until it is an independent entity (however reliant it is upon the environment around it)... I haven't heard any scientific data on this... but are we aware of at what point the 'baby' goes from simply sensing... to doing something of its own 'will?' with what it senses?

A chicken is as capable of feeling pain as I am... yet I eat chicken. What is so different about aborting a growth in my uterus that can feel pain? Pain happens... it is not a good reason to stop an abortion simply because it will hurt someone/something.