Childhood indoctrination

[thesummerqueen]

My container gardening is going well. I keep meaning to post pictures. The basil is slow on the uptake, but we had lingering cold snaps in the spring, and I only get morning light.

[Forbinator]

Hmm...let's suppose hypothetically that animal faeces actually is necessary to grow crops (despite the existence of synthetic fertilisers). How does producing fertiliser mean that the animals deserve to be slaughtered? This link has not been explained in any detail.

[KichigaiNeko]

No mate. I think there have been inroads to use it in place of cotton (or equivalent denier) Mind you NOTHING can replace Cotton and American Cotton is of the best quality ( Gee I wonder why?) silk can also be made here in Oz and our wool is second to none (even the Kiwis are hard pressed to get the denier right)

Like I said before, I PREFER Wool, Silk, Hemp, Flax and Leather for it's biodegradability and sustainability over the petrol-chemical synthetics.

Well sure, maybe you can make a hemp-denim Jacket, but I'm still sceptical to it being used for other forms of clothing - underwear, trousers, shirts - like I said it's a more coarse fabric and while it's more durable than cotton I don't think there's this great big conspiracy against it that you think there is!

Nah, I think we have mastered that one...I did find a store here in bumfuck WA that had some very nice clothing ...hang on....

http://www.madeinhemp.com.au/

Seems bamboo is also being utilised. Gotta get Zen some of those sox!

http://www.theiconic.com.au/Hemp-Henley-...pQod2m8AXA

Ahh Margaret River! I might have known!
http://www.hempco.net.au/

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Hmm...let's suppose hypothetically that animal faeces actually is necessary to grow crops (despite the existence of synthetic fertilisers). How does producing fertiliser mean that the animals deserve to be slaughtered? This link has not been explained in any detail.

The same question can be asked "why do you think you deserve to eat plant material?"

[Forbinator]

Now that someone posted something with maggots.


How do you 2 feel about the use of insects by humans for food and for medical reasons?

Well, Forbi thinks killing silkworms is "sadistic cruelty"!

No, actually you explained that the silkworms are in a dormant phase of metamorphosis when they are boiled alive, so I yielded the point.

As for insect use in general, it is certainly more desirable to use an ecological r-species than a k-species (as I explained earlier in the thread). I think not much is known about their sentience and ability to experience pain and suffering, but it is reasonable to conclude a lower survival instinct based on their ecological status.

[Aractus]

Perhaps, but you're yet to tell me the alternatives for wool ya know. Or maybe we should start making everything out of silk?

[thesummerqueen]

Hmm...let's suppose hypothetically that animal faeces actually is necessary to grow crops (despite the existence of synthetic fertilisers). How does producing fertiliser mean that the animals deserve to be slaughtered? This link has not been explained in any detail.

I never said it did. I merely pointed out that to have agriculture spread enough to feed the current (and most) human populations, you need a way to supplement the soil.

It's true the soil "takes care" of itself in its own way, but you will not grow crops in it without supplementing it. End of story.

Killing the animals after using their shit is an entirely different story.


Good read. It won't take you long:

Why I'm Not a Vegan

Is this an excuse for animal cruelty? Absolutely not. But humans have removed themselves so far from the chain of survival that even the well-intentioned ones don't quite understand the way things go.

Neil deGrasse Tyson knew it, and that's why he said this:

“I would request that my body in death be buried not cremated, so that the energy content contained within it gets returned to the earth, so that flora and fauna can dine upon it, just as I have dined upon flora and fauna during my lifetime”

[Forbinator]

Whoopty-Fucking-Doo. That's mulesing. Yeah it aint that pretty, and yes it causes the sheep some short-term temporary pain. Get over it. If it's a choice between that and flystrike I choose mulesing, obviously

This is an obvious false dichotomy, which you and KichigaiNeko repeatedly posted. A. we don't need to farm the sheep in the first place, and B. there are humane alternatives to mulesing which some farmers actually use.

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No, of course not, and I'm not arguing to produce these overbred animals and then leave them alone, just don't produce them in the first place. The question really is: Do you really want to support an industry that produces millions of these overbred animals who are not able to survive unless we mutilate them? The best answer is and remains: No, just don't buy it until they get their act together.

OK, I know I said this ages ago, so let's try again now. Let's say that I accept that there is a valid ethical argument. Now let's consider the environmental argument. Many of the uses that wool has - for instance as a hard-wearing textile fabric (as used on chairs, lounges, etc) cannot be matched with cotton or synthetics. Said fabrics do not pass rub tests - I'm sure you're aware of this - they simply do not last as long as wool. Now your main two alternatives to this are vinyl and leather. I actually don't know the difference in durability between vinyl and leather, however what I do know is that leather folds and vinyl doesn't. In other words, vinyl is fucking uncompfortable! Now what I simply don't understand is that you know there is a huge advantage to wool - environmentally - and yet you oppose it only on the grounds of ethics, as if the environmental concerns are not important!

Alternatives to wool include cotton, polyester, synthetic shearling, Tencel and Polartec Wind Pro. I have a jumper made of 100% acrylic which feels just like wool, and has lasted me for 10 years and counting. Now here you get a choice: do you want to claim that wool is superior because it lasts a long time, or because it degrades easily? You can't claim both as they are contradictions! Wool requires machinery to process, and requires more land clearance to grow, so I remain unconvinced that wool is environmentally preferable to acrylics unless you provide a valid source.

And look, a vegan couch: http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/S89873843/

[littleendian]

Why I'm Not a Vegan

Basically this says "We're all part of a cycle of life and death". Okay, nobody questions that, but more often than not that is just a defeatist phrase that people use so they can lean back and just do whatever the fuck comes to mind.

There is a real choice for everyone, which is between going around clubbing everyone in reach and causing the maximum amount of pain and going the opposite direction. On the one end of the spectrum you have Stalin and on the other Buddha. That's a real choice everyone has and you can't deny this with your nebulous, esoteric babble about "it's all a cycle of life and death".

I'm not denying veganism practiced on a large scale flys in the face of todays way of doing agriculture, it'd turn everything upside down and inside out (in many respects a very good thing) and there would be plenty of new issues cropping up. But I claim none of those issues are insurmountable and all of them are much better than the grim gulag reality of today.

[thesummerqueen]

I never said things were insurmountable, but you dismissing what I wrote is as bad as people dismissing what you write. Usually the truth lies in the middle - not at one or the other end of the spectrum.

It's not esoteric babble, you goob, it's LIFE.

[Forbinator]

The same question can be asked "why do you think you deserve to eat plant material?"

You seem to just want to keep playing this game. Are there any squares that anyone's missed?