Classic

[John V]

No, it's not worthless. And I'm shocked and depressed that you are yet another theist that refuses to see how true it is.

Define your terms - good person, evil person, good things, evil things. You're either going to run into fallacies, or end up with something that can be applied to things other than religion.

[Doubting Thomas]

Personally, I think They want to drawn themselves in religion. If they bury something long enough it will go away, but it just sneaks up when they least expect it. Then boom we get a story like that.

I think this is the way I've heard it explained. They have these "sinful" gay desires so they think the best way to get rid of them is to become a priest/preacher, so then if they're that close to God surely they'll be able to pray the gay away. Of course, we all know how that works out in practice and they end up getting caught in a scandal.

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Would it make you feel better if homosexuals had their own religion to watch your kids?

I thought that's what the Catholic church was for...

[Rahul]

Define your terms - good person, evil person, good things, evil things. You're either going to run into fallacies, or end up with something that can be applied to things other than religion.

Ok.

Good person = Someone that avoids causing mental, physical, or financial harm to another person but tries to alleviate such harm if it occurs.

Evil person = Someone that intentionally causes mental, physical, or financial harm to another person.

Good things = Helping other people not experience mental, physical, or financial harm or suffering.

Evil things = Anything that causes people mental, physical, or financial harm or suffering.

Can this be applied to other things than religion? Of course. I've already pointed out one. Patriotism is often used by people to justify commiting evil acts.

The number one justification though, is religion.

[Doubting Thomas]

I didn't name you specifically, nor have I seen you around much burning Christians at the stake. But maybe you can now feel my pain!

If posting here is causing you pain, you could always leave. If being a member of a religious organization which is notorious for its clergy molesting and raping children and then trying to cover it up is causing you pain, then either leave it or work to change it.

[John V]

Good person = Someone that avoids causing mental, physical, or financial harm to another person but tries to alleviate such harm if it occurs.

Evil person = Someone that intentionally causes mental, physical, or financial harm to another person.

Good things = Helping other people not experience mental, physical, or financial harm or suffering.

Evil things = Anything that causes people mental, physical, or financial harm or suffering.

Since you define good/evil people based on their actions, and intent/justifications aren't involved, there is no such thing as a good person who does evil things. A person who does evil things is by definition an evil person.

Can this be applied to other things than religion? Of course. I've already pointed out one. Patriotism is often used by people to justify commiting evil acts.

The number one justification though, is religion.

So you know that "that takes religion" is false, but you quote it and defend it anyway. Strange.

[Rahul]

Since you define good/evil people based on their actions, and intent/justifications aren't involved, there is no such thing as a good person who does evil things. A person who does evil things is by definition an evil person.

Ok. If you are against full marriage equality for homosexuals you are evil.

I'm ok with that definition.

Are you for or against full marriage equality for homosexuals, John?

So you know that "that takes religion" is false, but you quote it and defend it anyway. Strange.

No, I started off by quoting another person's words. Then, in explaining it from the very get go I mentioned that other things can also be used, such as patriotism. I have repeatedly said that religion is the number one justification, not the only justification.

You are just ignoring it because of the quote I used. Would you like me to modify that person's quote? Ok.

No matter what there will always be good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things, but for good people to do evil things that requires allegience to a power they consider greater than themselves, the number one of which, is religion.

Can we move on now?

[John V]

Ok. If you are against full marriage equality for homosexuals you are evil.

I'm ok with that definition.

You haven't removed the problem. You'd still have IYO an evil person with an evil position, not a good person with an evil position.

No, I started off by quoting another person's words. Then, in explaining it from the very get go I mentioned that other things can also be used, such as patriotism. I have repeatedly said that religion is the number one justification, not the only justification.

You are just ignoring it because of the quote I used. Would you like me to modify that person's quote? Ok.

OK.

No matter what there will always be good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things, but for good people to do evil things that requires allegience to a power they consider greater than themselves, the number one of which, is religion.

You still have the problem that, based on the definitions presented, a good person doing evil things is an impossibility.

[Rahul]

You haven't removed the problem. You'd still have IYO an evil person with an evil position, not a good person with an evil position.

This is an entirely different discussion we need to hash out.

I don't think that someone that commits one evil act or even several evil acts is an evil person. My mother is a very good woman. But she would happily commit the evil act of preventing equal rights to homosexuals.

How does a good person commit an evil act and still be a good person?

Because they don't see it as an evil act.

It's all about intent really. If you intend to do something for the sole purpose of causing mental, physical, or financial harm to someone, yeah you're evil.

If your only intention is to uphold what you believe to be god's desires on earth, you are a good person using religion to justify commiting an evil act without even seeing it as an evil act.

That's how this whole giving your allegience to a power you believe to be greater than yourself works for commiting evil.

Evil people don't need to justify their evil actions. They just fucking do it.

[Savannahw]

Can we move on now?

Apparently not.

[Rahul]

Apparently not.

No, this is good. John is forcing me to refine my thoughts and beliefs on this matter.

I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation.