Believing Vs Claiming to Believe

[Bad Wolf]

I answered it further into the post, didn't your mommy read down that far for you.

Ok, lets stop messing around here. You didn't answer my question. Do you believe in bigfoot? Yes or no? There are only two possible choices here. And before you say: 'I haven't made up my mind' That is absolute BS. We as human beings, form beliefs before we have all the knowledge. It us involuntary and unavoidable. So I ask you for, what is this? The third....fourth time? Do you believe in bigfoot.

I'm telling you about the God you can find in scripture,

Oh thats weird....Cause i've been told by other christians about the god of scripture, and he is a little different to the one you describe. In fact, the description is a little different with every christian I ask. Funny how that works.

Where is this unicorny land, same place as candy land, right.

Its on another plane of existence, completely impossible to detect.
See, what is really funny here is you think i'm trolling you. But i'm really not. In case you haven't worked it out yet. All i'm doing is repeating what answers I have got from christians and replacing all things to do with god with things to do with my unicorn. And fancy that! It works!

I bet you haven't feed a donkey a carrot in years, sounds like you're in trouble with your uni-god, to bad man. Guess you'll be reincarnated with your head up your butt... wait that's your normal right now, man you're in serious trouble. Why would I want to worship what could be my pet in heaven.

I feel sorry that your soul may not be saved. I'll feed a donkey for you.

Oh, im terribly sorry if I was being unclear GC. Was it the omnipotence thing?
OK try this, the question is to prove my point, i promise i'm not trolling you here.
Can god create a boulder that he cannot lift?

Just how old are you 6 or 7. This is when children of Christians know how ridiculous that question is, grow up.

GC

Sorry GC, your gunna have to explain why that question is ridiculous.
And yet again, your refusal to answer one of my questions, possibly says more about you than the answer I would receive. But come on! If its a ridiculous question, the answer surely won't matter right?

[Esquilax]

It is when one shows no more mental capacity than what BW portrays.

GC

Well, it depends on what you actually want to happen: if you're actually concerned with either correcting his error, or even appearing like you actually know what you're talking about, then taking the time to answer the question properly is the best option. I would have thought being on a discussion forum implies you want to discuss things, after all.

As it stands, you just sound evasive, like you're cornered with a question you can't answer, and lashing out in the hopes that it'll distract us.

And, again, repetitious posts of that nature are against the rules.

[Bob Kelso]

You are lying either about your age or being a Christian for 20 years. Sorry you have no control over your mind, that must be very disturbing. It's terrible you did not have a personal relationship with Christ, I'm sorry you wasted so much time with such a troubled mind. Now I know why you have trouble with the truth, I want over look it though, tough luck.

No, I have complete control over my mind. The "experiences" I was having amount to no more than a reflection of how I wanted to feel. No more, no less. It took a long time for me to reconcile that I had wasted all those years of my life, as for my age and the amount of time I had been a Christian they are consistent with what I have said, I was baptized at a young age yes I do remember it, and have always "known" Jesus for as long as I can recall.

Oh, I guess I can go read through a general science book and claim I have a scientific foundation, good to know, I'll remember what you said here for future use. Just because you read it as ridiculous doesn't qualify it as such, sorry it takes an understanding of scriptures.

How dishonest of you. Biblical stories and scientific knowledge are not one in the same, now that aside if you read through a few science books and understood it then yes you would have a foundation of science to work with instead of going in blind. You know nothing of the extent of my knowledge and therefore your assertions about it are unfounded and irrelevant. As I've stated before I have been around it for the entirety of my life, my grandfather whom I have lived with off and on is a pastor, I can't even begin to tell you how many sermons and bible studies I took part in.

So yes, I have a very well established foundation of knowledge pertaining to biblical text, but by no means am I an expert.

You ain't lived long enough to know what life is about young'in. Your general attitude tells me much about you.

Yet again with the assertions of what you "know" of me. You know what I'll just leave you to it.

I knew you did not understand the Bible and what God was doing down through history, you're like most, just believing you know things about the scriptures because you own a Bible.

See the above posts about biblical knowledge.

I have my fun here, just like everyone else, and yes I make snide remarks at times, I've never denied it.

Glad to see the admission.

It's your right to believe what you want but when you, make assertions about scriptures or God with out understanding what you are saying, I'm going to tell you that you're wrong. I'm not going to beat around the bush, not for you or anyone else. You believe I set myself up above you, I find that quite curious. When I pray for you or anyone else on this forum I'm being a servant, I set myself below you to lift you up before God, prayer is service work and those who use it as something else have mistaken what prayer in a Christians life is about. Biblically I am your superior, I've allowed God to teach me not only directly but through many very intelligent people. There are many many who are superior to me in bible knowledge, these I listen to and learn from. There are many here who are superior to me in many subjects and generally I stay away from those discussions.

GC, I'll be honest, that was a semi-respectable post that showed you are in fact capable of humility.

As far as being "biblically superior" that's your religions opinion on superiority over the unsaved and like all other things that come from the bible I throw it to the wind.

That's a good thing your doing and I wasn't referring to any part of your life but the spiritual, you gave it up and all the responsibilities that go with it. Serving God is no easy task at times but it is extremely rewarding, even when immature little boys call you names.

Then please make it clear as to what you are referring to in the future. Some people give their all for those that depend on them and for others to call them selfish, or in this case to cause a misunderstanding, is very offensive.

My apologies at calling you names that was unkind of me regardless of my reasoning.

So yes, I'm gladly selfish in a spiritual respect because I don't believe in your god and I don't believe in a soul.

Death reveals much about people.

Indeed.

My house is built on the truth of God, something you some how missed and now because I stand on that truth you call me arrogant, you speak as a child and show you have little regard for those who want live as you do, what a waste of life.

I do not speak from a child's perspective, I speak from the stance of one who's mind resides outside of your faith and it would do you well to remember that. What I mean to say is that from the outside looking in, your "truth" is arrogant/bigoted/ignorant in other words it is uncouth.

Perhaps you are correct in one regard, I may be disregarding and disrespecting those who choose to live under the thumb of an imaginary being because I don't agree with it. As I look more and more at my actions and my words in regards to religion and those who evangelize it, I'm realizing that I'm far more angry at myself for taking so long to cast off that belief system and take responsibility for myself, and not so angry at others.

That doesn't mean I don't and won't think certain aspects about religion are awful and worthy of being angry at, or that I'm not of the opinion that the world would be a much better place without religion at all. Although perhaps I won't be so quick to be an ass about it in the future.

[Godscreated]

It is when one shows no more mental capacity than what BW portrays.

GC

Well, it depends on what you actually want to happen: if you're actually concerned with either correcting his error, or even appearing like you actually know what you're talking about, then taking the time to answer the question properly is the best option. I would have thought being on a discussion forum implies you want to discuss things, after all.

As it stands, you just sound evasive, like you're cornered with a question you can't answer, and lashing out in the hopes that it'll distract us.

And, again, repetitious posts of that nature are against the rules.

Then do some thing with Min 98% of his post are, Christians are stupid.

GC

---

I answered it further into the post, didn't your mommy read down that far for you.

Ok, lets stop messing around here. You didn't answer my question. Do you believe in bigfoot? Yes or no? There are only two possible choices here. And before you say: 'I haven't made up my mind' That is absolute BS. We as human beings, form beliefs before we have all the knowledge. It us involuntary and unavoidable. So I ask you for, what is this? The third....fourth time? Do you believe in bigfoot.

I gave you an answer, if it doesn't fit your idea of how a question can be answered then that's something you'll have to deal with.

I'm telling you about the God you can find in scripture,

Oh thats weird....Cause i've been told by other christians about the god of scripture, and he is a little different to the one you describe. In fact, the description is a little different with every christian I ask. Funny how that works.

What's funny is you wouldn't want to find out who He really is. Actually without direct quotes what you've said is only hearsay. Got any proof.

Where is this unicorny land, same place as candy land, right.

Its on another plane of existence, completely impossible to detect.
See, what is really funny here is you think i'm trolling you. But i'm really not. In case you haven't worked it out yet. All i'm doing is repeating what answers I have got from christians and replacing all things to do with god with things to do with my unicorn. And fancy that! It works!

You are trolling, it's the best you can do. Again hearsay, you need to bring direct quotes if you're going to prove anything.

I bet you haven't feed a donkey a carrot in years, sounds like you're in trouble with your uni-god, to bad man. Guess you'll be reincarnated with your head up your butt... wait that's your normal right now, man you're in serious trouble. Why would I want to worship what could be my pet in heaven.

I feel sorry that your soul may not be saved. I'll feed a donkey for you.

What about you, you are dodging my statement. I care nothing for your unicorny, but for you it's beginning to look bad.

Oh, im terribly sorry if I was being unclear GC. Was it the omnipotence thing?
OK try this, the question is to prove my point, i promise i'm not trolling you here.
Can god create a boulder that he cannot lift?

Yes you are, you have nothing else to rely on. Being all powerful as nothing to do with creating a boulder, you could be the strongest man in the world yet you couldn't create enough brains to make you intelligent.

Just how old are you 6 or 7. This is when children of Christians know how ridiculous that question is, grow up.

GC

Sorry GC, your gunna have to explain why that question is ridiculous.
And yet again, your refusal to answer one of my questions, possibly says more about you than the answer I would receive. But come on! If its a ridiculous question, the answer surely won't matter right?

You want to know ask God, I do not know the answer to that. Troll with God for a while, He has more patients than I do.

GC

[Bad Wolf]

I gave you an answer, if it doesn't fit your idea of how a question can be answered then that's something you'll have to deal with.

You gave me an answer, but not an answer to my question. There is only two choices: yes or no. Since you didn't give me either of those two, you did not answer my question. Why can you not answer it? Do you believe in big foot? Yes or no?

What's funny is you wouldn't want to find out who He really is. Actually without direct quotes what you've said is only hearsay. Got any proof.

I'm sorry, I don't have any records of conversations I have had with christians. But you questioning the reliability of what i am saying, is very interesting. Are you denying that these different views and opinions exist? You know the ones i'm talking about, the ones that disagree with you.

You are trolling, it's the best you can do. Again hearsay, you need to bring direct quotes if you're going to prove anything.

Fantastic! I think you are getting it now. This is exactly how a lot of atheists feel every time you mention god, the bible, heaven, hell etc...The list could go on for pages!

What about you, you are dodging my statement. I care nothing for your unicorny, but for you it's beginning to look bad.

Sorry, what statement am i dodging? The one about my head being up my butt?

Oh, im terribly sorry if I was being unclear GC. Was it the omnipotence thing?
OK try this, the question is to prove my point, i promise i'm not trolling you here.
Can god create a boulder that he cannot lift?

Yes you are, you have nothing else to rely on. Being all powerful as nothing to do with creating a boulder, you could be the strongest man in the world yet you couldn't create enough brains to make you intelligent.

I find it very hard to believe that you don't understand this situation and could misinterpret it like this by accident.
If god can't create a stone that he can't lift, then he is not all powerful because he can't create a stone he can't lift
If god can create a stone that he can't lift, then he is not all powerful because he cannot lift a stone.
You see the dilemma here is called a paradox. Omnipotence is impossible.

Just how old are you 6 or 7. This is when children of Christians know how ridiculous that question is, grow up.

GC

You want to know ask God, I do not know the answer to that. Troll with God for a while, He has more patients than I do.

GC

It really is hilarious that you think i'm trolling you. No, your right, I am trolling you, with logic

[The Reality Salesman01]

You want to know ask God, I do not know the answer to that. Troll with God for a while, He has more patients than I do.

GC, no kidding, this was so close to being the best answer you have ever given to any question I've ever seen posed to you. Guess what? It's okay not to know. Nobody here is going to give you shit if you admit that you don't know something. There's lots of stuff we don't know.

The reason we have these "debates" is because sometimes you make it sound like you do know things like this. That's the point of those types of questions. To point out how absurd something is, and bring attention to the fact that you couldn't possibly know the answer to that.

Now, why?

I said it was almost the best answer because you're so close to seeing what I'm hoping for you to see.

If we don't know because we don't know God, why don't you know?

Why can't you ask him, and get the answer?

What is it about God's nature that makes these absurd questions inherent to the topic?

Do you really think that we're just so set on ignoring something that makes perfect sense, or is there stuff about God that literally doesn't and can't make sense?

Questions like that, and others are easy to construct to show the contradicting nature of God. But we don't make-up the premises upon which his nature is founded.

Just level with us, and admit you don't know when we ask something. The next step is being honest with yourself about why you don't know.

I realize you'll probably just tell me to go fuck myself, I just thought it would be worth a shot.

[Godscreated]

---

You are lying either about your age or being a Christian for 20 years. Sorry you have no control over your mind, that must be very disturbing. It's terrible you did not have a personal relationship with Christ, I'm sorry you wasted so much time with such a troubled mind. Now I know why you have trouble with the truth, I want over look it though, tough luck.

---

No, I have complete control over my mind. The "experiences" I was having amount to no more than a reflection of how I wanted to feel. No more, no less. It took a long time for me to reconcile that I had wasted all those years of my life, as for my age and the amount of time I had been a Christian they are consistent with what I have said, I was baptized at a young age yes I do remember it, and have always "known" Jesus for as long as I can recall.

Being baptized saves no one, it no more makes you a Christian than throwing a rock at an atheist, sorry you were mislead. You know if you had studied scripture you would have come to understand this.
You said that the mind could make people believe things that's not true, now you're saying you wanted to feel that way, you need to choose which it is. If you choose "you wanted to feel" then you are saying free will is the right of man, a very different thing than most atheist proclaim here.

---

Oh, I guess I can go read through a general science book and claim I have a scientific foundation, good to know, I'll remember what you said here for future use. Just because you read it as ridiculous doesn't qualify it as such, sorry it takes an understanding of scriptures.

---

How dishonest of you. Biblical stories and scientific knowledge are not one in the same, now that aside if you read through a few science books and understood it then yes you would have a foundation of science to work with instead of going in blind. You know nothing of the extent of my knowledge and therefore your assertions about it are unfounded and irrelevant. As I've stated before I have been around it for the entirety of my life, my grandfather whom I have lived with off and on is a pastor, I can't even begin to tell you how many sermons and bible studies I took part in.

So yes, I have a very well established foundation of knowledge pertaining to biblical text, but by no means am I an expert.

Dishonest, hows that, atheist here are always comparing the scientific with the spiritual, yet when I do it you call it dishonest, par for the atheist coarse.
Being around believers and study groups doesn't qualify anyone to have the knowledge of scriptures, I know people that have made quotes and say they came from scripture and they are nowhere to be found in scripture. These I speak of have been in the church for decades.
If you have a well founded knowledge of scriptures why don't you use it here. I would have a better idea of what to believe about you. Until I see you do this I will continue to believe you are a "want-to- be."

You ain't lived long enough to know what life is about young'in. Your general attitude tells me much about you.

Yet again with the assertions of what you "know" of me. You know what I'll just leave you to it.

Son, listen closely, what I'm saying here is life teaches lessons that do not come any other way than through years of living, years you have not even seen. Be patient life's lessons are on their way, there will be many you are not going to like but, those are the ones to remember. There will be many pleasant lessons too, but generally we have no trouble remembering them. Life's on the way hang on.

I knew you did not understand the Bible and what God was doing down through history, you're like most, just believing you know things about the scriptures because you own a Bible.

See the above posts about biblical knowledge.

Like I said above you have yet to demonstrate that knowledge.

I have my fun here, just like everyone else, and yes I make snide remarks at times, I've never denied it.

Glad to see the admission.

Can't hide the written.

It's your right to believe what you want but when you, make assertions about scriptures or God with out understanding what you are saying, I'm going to tell you that you're wrong. I'm not going to beat around the bush, not for you or anyone else. You believe I set myself up above you, I find that quite curious. When I pray for you or anyone else on this forum I'm being a servant, I set myself below you to lift you up before God, prayer is service work and those who use it as something else have mistaken what prayer in a Christians life is about. Biblically I am your superior, I've allowed God to teach me not only directly but through many very intelligent people. There are many many who are superior to me in bible knowledge, these I listen to and learn from. There are many here who are superior to me in many subjects and generally I stay away from those discussions.

GC, I'll be honest, that was a semi-respectable post that showed you are in fact capable of humility.

As far as being "biblically superior" that's your religions opinion on superiority over the unsaved and like all other things that come from the bible I throw it to the wind.

Thanks, I have no human superiority over others, I believe all are created equal and to discard all that is in the Bible could been seen as dishonest, there are great teachings in scripture about being a respectable person.
Being biblically superior only means I would have more knowledge of scripture and what it teaches.

That's a good thing your doing and I wasn't referring to any part of your life but the spiritual, you gave it up and all the responsibilities that go with it. Serving God is no easy task at times but it is extremely rewarding, even when immature little boys call you names.

Then please make it clear as to what you are referring to in the future. Some people give their all for those that depend on them and for others to call them selfish, or in this case to cause a misunderstanding, is very offensive.

Sorry you mistook what I meant, on here I usually speak of the spiritual life, I know those who do not believe do good in their lives. Your ideas of morally correct and mine differ since you have left church not all but some.

My apologies at calling you names that was unkind of me regardless of my reasoning.

We all will retaliate when we feel we are wronged, I've done so many times here and in the world. I take my Christian life seriously and anyone who thinks I will set back and let others try to trash what I believe will hear from me and sometimes in no uncertain terms. I also apologies for anything I said that was hurtful to you.

So yes, I'm gladly selfish in a spiritual respect because I don't believe in your god and I don't believe in a soul.

I'm wondering what your grandfather feels, just a thought no need to explain.

My house is built on the truth of God, something you some how missed and now because I stand on that truth you call me arrogant, you speak as a child and show you have little regard for those who want live as you do, what a waste of life.

I do not speak from a child's perspective, I speak from the stance of one who's mind resides outside of your faith and it would do you well to remember that. What I mean to say is that from the outside looking in, your "truth" is arrogant/bigoted/ignorant in other words it is uncouth.

That's where I see the problem on this site, atheist, even if some use to be part of a church, are on the outside looking in. I sure some Christians are that way, I've seen it within the church and let it drive me away at one time. Not now though I understand that some will be that way no matter what and I shouldn't and want allow it to do anything but strengthen my beliefs. The weakness of those who percieve to be strong can be a great teacher.

Perhaps you are correct in one regard, I may be disregarding and disrespecting those who choose to live under the thumb of an imaginary being because I don't agree with it. As I look more and more at my actions and my words in regards to religion and those who evangelize it, I'm realizing that I'm far more angry at myself for taking so long to cast off that belief system and take responsibility for myself, and not so angry at others.

I really do not think I had much if anything to do with you realizing your anger and that it may be miss placed but, I'm happy to see you realize that you need to deal with your anger. I want say good luck, I don't believe in luck in matters such as this. I have already done what I believe will help.

That doesn't mean I don't and won't think certain aspects about religion are awful and worthy of being angry at, or that I'm not of the opinion that the world would be a much better place without religion at all. Although perhaps I won't be so quick to be an ass about it in the future.

I can agree with you, people who practice Christianity as a religion and all other religions can bring ill feelings and harm, I get angry with Christians and others, and you can bet Christians do not escape my discussed with them. Please do not take this wrong I do not set myself above others, but I will always try and defend what I know as truth from God.

GC

[Godscreated]

You want to know ask God, I do not know the answer to that. Troll with God for a while, He has more patients than I do.

GC, no kidding, this was so close to being the best answer you have ever given to any question I've ever seen posed to you. Guess what? It's okay not to know. Nobody here is going to give you shit if you admit that you don't know something. There's lots of stuff we don't know.

The reason we have these "debates" is because sometimes you make it sound like you do know things like this. That's the point of those types of questions. To point out how absurd something is, and bring attention to the fact that you couldn't possibly know the answer to that.

You must have misunderstood my intent, I'm tired of messing with someone who is so childish that they must have a question answered their way or it doesn't count as an answer. By the way, I see you no differently, you can't stand it when a Christian gives you an answer that you do not like.

I said it was almost the best answer because you're so close to seeing what I'm hoping for you to see.

Yep, you think you have me in a corner and can talk me out of my belief, believe me your mouth ain't got enough words.

If we don't know because we don't know God, why don't you know?

Not a question I see as relevant, why should I, God created a universe, if that's not satisfying to you then you will never be satisfied in or with life, sorry. I look at what God does for mankind, not at a selfish little idea that has no relevance in life, you see I take God seriously, unlike you.

Why can't you ask him, and get the answer?

Why don't you. I have enough respect for God not to misuse prayer in such a way as you are suggesting. You on the other hand well.... I think we all know.

What is it about God's nature that makes these absurd questions inherent to the topic?

Why would a question such as this be of any importance to those who are concerned about God's work for mankind, petty stuff should be left to those who do not care and since that's you deal with the question with God.

Do you really think that we're just so set on ignoring something that makes perfect sense, or is there stuff about God that literally doesn't and can't make sense?

Of coarse there are things we can't understand about God, such as how could He love us enough to allow His only Son to die for a bunch of ingrates. Now that's a mystery only God can answer and one day I'll find out the answer to that.

Questions like that, and others are easy to construct to show the contradicting nature of God. But we don't make-up the premises upon which his nature is founded.

There's nothing contradictory about God, it's only in your head and you know what the other atheist say about a mind leading you in the wrong direction, right.

Just level with us, and admit you don't know when we ask something. The next step is being honest with yourself about why you don't know.

I give you my answers, just because they are not acceptable to you does not mean they are dishonest answers. I'm honest with myself about not knowing all there is about God, if I knew all about Him what kind of God would He be. Probably like all other gods, made of stone, wood, money or any other material stuffs.

I realize you'll probably just tell me to go fuck myself, I just thought it would be worth a shot.

Your realization was as wrong as you are about God.

GC

---

@ bad Wolf, I'm finished with you on this thread, maybe you will come to reality in another.

GC

[Bob Kelso]

Being baptized saves no one, it no more makes you a Christian than throwing a rock at an atheist, sorry you were mislead. You know if you had studied scripture you would have come to understand this.

No you misunderstand, I understand that the baptism is merely a public admission of accepting Jesus Christ, what I am saying is that I don't ever recall a time where I didn't worship or pray to him, besides recent years of course.

You said that the mind could make people believe things that's not true, now you're saying you wanted to feel that way, you need to choose which it is. If you choose "you wanted to feel" then you are saying free will is the right of man, a very different thing than most atheist proclaim here.

I'm saying it was both, I wanted to feel forgiven and loved, and when ones mind wants something badly then it's quite possible for it to feel these things from oneself.

As an example, that admittedly isn't quite cohesive but nonetheless I'll give it anyway, have you ever dealt with a stalker? They are so convinced their target feels things for them and the see little "signs" of it everywhere. No matter how ludicrous. Such as, oh my mailbox flag is up but there's no mail inside it must be Sally telling me she loves me.

Dishonest, hows that, atheist here are always comparing the scientific with the spiritual, yet when I do it you call it dishonest, par for the atheist coarse.

Dishonest in the fact that you know the types of knowledge are not the same. And I don't speak for other atheists, just myself.

Being around believers and study groups doesn't qualify anyone to have the knowledge of scriptures, I know people that have made quotes and say they came from scripture and they are nowhere to be found in scripture. These I speak of have been in the church for decades.
If you have a well founded knowledge of scriptures why don't you use it here. I would have a better idea of what to believe about you. Until I see you do this I will continue to believe you are a "want-to- be."

I shall, before I was not so keen to demonstrate such knowledge because I was loathe to possess it. I don't expect you to understand that but imagine you had spent your life wrongly believing something. People don't like being aware they have made mistakes, myself included.

Son, listen closely, what I'm saying here is life teaches lessons that do not come any other way than through years of living, years you have not even seen. Be patient life's lessons are on their way, there will be many you are not going to like but, those are the ones to remember. There will be many pleasant lessons too, but generally we have no trouble remembering them. Life's on the way hang on.

I have the understanding that some things in life cannot be learned until gone through, but what you're failing to take into consideration is that experience isn't always parallel with age. I'll leave it at that.

Sorry you mistook what I meant, on here I usually speak of the spiritual life, I know those who do not believe do good in their lives. Your ideas of morally correct and mine differ since you have left church not all but some.

I'll keep this in mind for future reference.

I also apologies for anything I said that was hurtful to you.

Apology accepted, perhaps we can hope to establish a more civilized rapport in the future.

I'm wondering what your grandfather feels, just a thought no need to explain.

He disagrees vehemently with my viewpoint, but is largely accepting that it's my decision.

I really do not think I had much if anything to do with you realizing your anger and that it may be miss placed but, I'm happy to see you realize that you need to deal with your anger. I want say good luck, I don't believe in luck in matters such as this. I have already done what I believe will help.

No it was self introspection mostly but this conversation did serve as a catalyst to some insight on my own reactions.

I can agree with you, people who practice Christianity as a religion and all other religions can bring ill feelings and harm, I get angry with Christians and others, and you can bet Christians do not escape my discussed with them. Please do not take this wrong I do not set myself above others, but I will always try and defend what I know as truth from God.

GC

Well I'm glad you see that it does bring harm, and I'm not blind to the good things that can come out of it but in my opinion it does not outweigh the bad by any means. Too many lives ruined and lost in the name of a deity that may or may not be there, and I'm of the opinion he isn't.

Defense in ones own beliefs is fine, as you can see I firmly defend my own. We don't agree on them so this is where we butt heads and discuss things, hopefully more civilly in the future.

[Brakeman]

Being baptized saves no one,

But it does give you super magical WOO WOO hear the voice of the holy spirit powers!!

You'd know this if you ever really studied the scriptures.