On the logic of nationalism

[Ryantology]

But those tribes too must be united by notions of ethnicity, language and culture.
My tribe is just one amongst the many tribes of the Turks.
But other than our tribal identities, we also have an ethnic identity, seperate from the tribal identity, which is the basis of our nation, our culture and our language.

Oh?

No, internationalism has failed. The world is still based on nation states.

Internationalism has only just begun.

And the example that you'd like us to look up to, I guess?
There were other examples throughout the ages. Romans, Greeks.
They all have failed to establish long-lasting cultural dominance throughout the (known) world.

Couldn't care less what you look up to.

That's just the point, though. No culture remains the same long enough to become singularly dominant. However, elements of their cultures still pervade. Last I checked, the Romans invented the republican form of government your country uses.

I'd say Europe. Just look at the Balkans and you'll see the definitive signs of the Turkish conquests. Hell, we even managed to convert large portions of the Balkans to our religion, who were previously Christian like the other Europeans. They dress like us, they drink our coffee, they use our phrases, they have adopted our titles, our names, our food, our music, and etc. And the fact that we have put an end to the last remnant of the Roman empire, de-christianized the birthplaces of Christianity, and put an end to a several millenia long Hellenic presence in Anatolia, build hammams, Mosques and etc. everywhere, I'd say that we've had 1000x the impact on Europe, than the impact that the Europeans had on us.
We practically fucked over Europe so hard, that they tried to get even with the treaty of Sevres which they could not ratify, and the Britsh president of the time boasted that he would send us back to where we came from, to central Central Asia.

And while the majority of Europe shows no significant signs of Turkish cultural influence, people in your country use a European-derived system of government, many dress in European-styled clothing, host to hundreds of European companies in modern buildings styled after those of Europe, and Europe hasn't been trying for years to get into the Turkish Union.

Well, we do not wish to return to the days of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman empire, and along with it, the multitude of other Turkish empires before the Ottomans, serve as an example of what we Turks are capable of.
This is the type of reasoning that is behind the whole "looking up to the past to build a future".

A prospect which has worked out in the long run a total of zero times. Your old fascist buddies in Italy and Germany had the same idea. But good luck anyway.

Or we also know that we cannot resurrect the Ottoman empire. As a nationalist, I know why the Ottoman Empire fell, because of the nationalism of our non-Turkish subjects. So we wish to build a new empire that is based on the Turkish ethnic consciousness alone, in which we can be together with our brethren, and liberate them from the domination of the others(and frankly, we do not have anyone else to look up to for that). For when we are united we are strong, and history shows this.
Looking up to the past, to build a stronger future.
Else, if we look at Turkey today, yeah, it really isn't much, but should that mean that we shouldn't aspire to the greatness of the old?

The greatness of the old is dead. Successful nations aspire to build their own, new greatness. They don't prop up their grandfather's corpses on a dusty old throne.

Well, the fact that they're dead, does not mean that their legacy is dead.
The fact that we exist here today is due to Sultan Alp Arslan. He is long dead, but we're still here, which means, his legacy still lives.
If he had thought as you did, he would not have bothered coming here, as he inherited his martial pride and lust for conquest from his ancestors, and he came here to open up new lands for us to conquer and colonize.
Our nation is first-rate, as on par with our accomplishments.

I guess in that corner of the world it rates as something resembling impressive. And in a hundred years, it will either not exist anymore or be unrecognizable to anyone alive today.

For now? In truth, I don't see anything else that could work for us or anyone else.
Besides, I don't even consider the "American" identity as a national identity.
It lacks the basic characteristics of a nation. What they do have is a lot of "citizens" though, citizens loyal to coin only.

Which, as the saying goes, talks and the bullshit walks.

[TAW]

Certain aspects of nationalism in terms of barring international corporations from meddling with other nations is positive but what I don't like is the culture derived from incredibly nationalistic nations. There's no reason why one nation of individuals should pride themselves over another nation just because of where they were born. It draws social lines that shouldn't exist and alienates people. We should all do our best to help those around us and the only way to make this world better is to start at home by making our countries stronger but I've always seen the nationalistic-patriotism to be reprehensible and just a control mechanism for the government.

[Assimilate]

The embrace of a bunch of imaginary lines and the refusal to accept culture evolution. Nationalism is a joke because it'll never work, what they're fighting for is unrealistic. Not to mention the notion from nationalist that internationalism has failed, how has it failed? It's basically just started, and with people that are so obsessed with their historical past maybe they do better if they started looking at things a little better in this century.

[Whateverist]

Definition: Nationalism is an inflated example of provincialism.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Internationalism has only just begun.

Just begun? The Soviets were once the paradise every internationalist looked up to. They fell. Now, the international corporations are facing resistance from the countries they have sought to exploit, nationalism is in rise, everywhere in Europe.
So, as an internationalist, what are your plans for the future? Egoraptor, no matter how ridiculous, has a plan. World conquest.
Let me hear yours.

That's just the point, though. No culture remains the same long enough to become singularly dominant. However, elements of their cultures still pervade. Last I checked, the Romans invented the republican form of government your country uses.

So? The type of government we are using was brought in overnight, and can be changed overnight. Types of government are rather specific to time and place. Turks had used numerous types of governments throughout their reign in Eurasia. Before this one, we had a long lasting Islamic government mixed with laws based on Turkish tradition.

But the nation remained, they didn't become Arabs throughout the 1000 years of our Islamic past, we won't become Euros in 90 years.
Not to mention that Europeans do not want us either. They hate us more than anyone else.

And while the majority of Europe shows no significant signs of Turkish cultural influence, people in your country use a European-derived system of government, many dress in European-styled clothing, host to hundreds of European companies in modern buildings styled after those of Europe, and Europe hasn't been trying for years to get into the Turkish Union.

Well, doesn't matter.
We've left a definite mark in Europe, than Europe left on us. As I said, we were not even originally from this place. We only considered the use of a Euro-style government at the beginning of the 20th century, while Turkish presence was in Europe for more than a 1000 years.
Besides, the Turkish Union has not yet been established as a political entity, but when it is, we will topple the established power structure in the world.

The reason we can't get into the EU is due to the fact that we aren't Europeans. They don't want us there. I can honestly say that I'm okay with that, I would have done the same.

A prospect which has worked out in the long run a total of zero times. Your old fascist buddies in Italy and Germany had the same idea. But good luck anyway.

Long run? We've established ourselves as an alien people in these lands and managed to oust its inhabitants, who were inheritors to some of the greatest civilisations the world has ever seen, and we've gained nothing in the long run?
Zero eh? It would have amounted to zero if after 1000 years, the Europeans managed to drive us back to Asia. But Turks are even yet prominent as a wealthy and prestigeous minority in the rest of the Balkan nations. When not plagued by idleness and laxity, when driven by a grand purpose and ideal, we are capable of great many things.

But, we're not concerned with going on about invading everyone. We just want to liberate our own from foreign rule, and then live in harmony with the nations around us. Our founding father had said once: "Peace at home, peace in the world".
We wish for peace, not war.
It is not the nationalists who are starting wars around the globe.

The greatness of the old is dead. Successful nations aspire to build their own, new greatness. They don't prop up their grandfather's corpses on a dusty old throne.

That is not what we are doing.
But the past serves as a point of reference for our future greatness. Nations without a past, cannot look up to the future. And we have a past, a past that we can look up to for future greatness. Even the nations who don't have much to show for, do so.
Even the blacks in your country try to create a "past" for themselves even if its artificial, so that they can look up to them for the future.
They claim that the Egyptians and Cartheginians were black so that they can at least have a sense of past greatness to aspire to anything other than being the slave of the white man in the future.
We don't need that. We already have so much to show for.

I guess in that corner of the world it rates as something resembling impressive. And in a hundred years, it will either not exist anymore or be unrecognizable to anyone alive today.

As long as there is even one of us alive, we'll rise again.

In your corner of the world, which is America, impressive amounts to brutalizing natives with stones and sticks, avoiding the conflicts of the old world, and joining only after it has been sufficiently prepared for you to go and reap the harvest. That's what you've done in both world wars, from the safety of your far-away continent, you have not really been in the line of fire.
We on the other hand have lasted for 1000 years in a hostile environment with enemies all around and facing internal strife at the same time. I think we amount to a much higher grade than yourselves.
And within a 100 years, we'll still be here, though I'm not sure where you'll be.

Which, as the saying goes, talks and the bullshit walks.

The dogs bark only until the wolf begins to howl.

Certain aspects of nationalism in terms of barring international corporations from meddling with other nations is positive but what I don't like is the culture derived from incredibly nationalistic nations. There's no reason why one nation of individuals should pride themselves over another nation just because of where they were born. It draws social lines that shouldn't exist and alienates people. We should all do our best to help those around us and the only way to make this world better is to start at home by making our countries stronger but I've always seen the nationalistic-patriotism to be reprehensible and just a control mechanism for the government.

If you do not pride yourself, why would you even strive to protect your nation?
Without pride, a nation will gladly sell itself out, it will be nothing more than a nation corrupt, and untrustworthy. A proud nation, on the other hand, you trust to be honest, you can trust to face hardships.

A nation without pride will be nothing more than prey to nations with pride, my friend. You can only make world worse by claiming that the nations ought not to be proud of themselves.
And surely, in todays world, where nationalism is being actively attacked by governments, being a nationalist amounts to nothing more than facing more hardships, and perhaps even going against your own government.

---

The embrace of a bunch of imaginary lines and the refusal to accept culture evolution. Nationalism is a joke because it'll never work, what they're fighting for is unrealistic. Not to mention the notion from nationalist that internationalism has failed, how has it failed? It's basically just started, and with people that are so obsessed with their historical past maybe they do better if they started looking at things a little better in this century.

How it has failed? It has failed by denying the ethnic, linguistic and cultural parameters that divide the people of the world. Denial of the truth of the world.
The world today is defined by nation states. The multiethnic empires of the old have collapsed. Macedonia, Rome, the great Mongol Empire, the Ottomans, Great Britain and lastly, the Soviet Union have withered and died away, giving rise to many nation states that exist today.

Nationalism has already worked. The fact that my country, or any countries exist is due to nationalism.
Else, the Greeks would never have revolted against our rule. The Indians would not have challenged the British rule over India.
The Suez canal would still be in the hands of the British, and Israel wouldn't exist.
Nationalism defined the world as we know today, it was the logical conclusion that the peoples of the world came to after years and years of "cultural evolution" as you said, that actually defined todays nations.

[Assimilate]

I guess I feel that this notion of ones identity stricken to a spot of land is an old ego driven system that does not help shape the future. You say denying ethnic, linguistic, and cultural parameters divide the people of the world, but ti doesn't if you embrace acceptance and are tolerant to ones culture. Nationalism why it may not divide the people of your country, it divides you to the bigger picture, the rest of the world. America it self has a lot of culture,New Yorks culture is different that that of Bostons, or Philadelphia, and even on a bigger picture that of Texas. Then cultural background on ancestry as well differs from across America, I guess my question to you would be, What do you look to gain, or think will better your country at a nationalist state in the future?

[downbeatplumb]

Wasn't it the 1930s the last time nationalism was on the rise?
How did that turn out again?

[kılıç_mehmet]

I guess I feel that this notion of ones identity stricken to a spot of land is an old ego driven system that does not help shape the future. You say denying ethnic, linguistic, and cultural parameters divide the people of the world, but ti doesn't if you embrace acceptance and are tolerant to ones culture. Nationalism why it may not divide the people of your country, it divides you to the bigger picture, the rest of the world. America it self has a lot of culture,New Yorks culture is different that that of Bostons, or Philadelphia, and even on a bigger picture that of Texas. Then cultural background on ancestry as well differs from across America, I guess my question to you would be, What do you look to gain, or think will better your country at a nationalist state in the future?

I don't know in which US state people speak an english that is as unintelligible as yours, but from what I could gather, America is a place that lacks even the most basic forms of social cohesion. They are not concerned with social justice, nor caring for their fellow kin. They lack the basic characteristics of a nation, and the people are only concerned with their own self-interest. Their familal values are degrading, and morality is waning, they are becoming more and more dependent on the brain and muscle power of foreigners that immigrate again, for personal gain.
A prominent Turkish nationalists had spoken about this many years ago, saying: "America is an abomination. A rootless collection of bandits. They will get what deserve. We as a nation of extensive history and many humane values and virtues, should cut off every relation with them."

Wasn't it the 1930s the last time nationalism was on the rise?
How did that turn out again?

1930? I think you have confused your dates.
Nationalism was around for longer than that. And it aided in the creation of modern Ireland, India and many other countries.

[Assimilate]

I guess I feel that this notion of ones identity stricken to a spot of land is an old ego driven system that does not help shape the future. You say denying ethnic, linguistic, and cultural parameters divide the people of the world, but ti doesn't if you embrace acceptance and are tolerant to ones culture. Nationalism why it may not divide the people of your country, it divides you to the bigger picture, the rest of the world. America it self has a lot of culture,New Yorks culture is different that that of Bostons, or Philadelphia, and even on a bigger picture that of Texas. Then cultural background on ancestry as well differs from across America, I guess my question to you would be, What do you look to gain, or think will better your country at a nationalist state in the future?

I don't know in which US state people speak an english that is as unintelligible as yours, but from what I could gather, America is a place that lacks even the most basic forms of social cohesion. They are not concerned with social justice, nor caring for their fellow kin. They lack the basic characteristics of a nation, and the people are only concerned with their own self-interest. Their familal values are degrading, and morality is waning, they are becoming more and more dependent on the brain and muscle power of foreigners that immigrate again, for personal gain.
A prominent Turkish nationalists had spoken about this many years ago, saying: "America is an abomination. A rootless collection of bandits. They will get what deserve. We as e a nation of extensive history and many humane values and virtues, should cut off every relation with them."

---

Wasn't it the 1930s the last time nationalism was on the rise?
How did that turn out again?

1930? I think you have confused your dates.
Nationalism was around for longer than that. And it aided in the creation of modern Ireland, India and many other countries.

So, in other words, go for insults and degrade America through media interpretation and avoid talking about what Turkey nationalism can actually bring to your nation... got it.

America has problems, but different regions have different issues and views. My point was cultural acceptance isn't what creates the problems in my country, which you seemed totally blind of while spewing your nonsense. Nationalism wont stop your short comings, it'll just create more.

[downbeatplumb]

Wasn't it the 1930s the last time nationalism was on the rise?
How did that turn out again?

1930? I think you have confused your dates.
Nationalism was around for longer than that. And it aided in the creation of modern Ireland, India and many other countries.

Including pakistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

Which created horror. The nationalism in Ireland led bloodshed that has not ended.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/troubles

Nationalism is just another way to divide people and always leads to conflict.

I am against it for that reason.