Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?

[bennyboy]

Okay, that's a very thoughtful post. I agree that many vegetarians overestimate the terms, in lives, of meat-eating (especially of beef) and milk production, as well as the number of lives lost in industrial farming (voles, birds, etc.)

Let's talk about how different lives are valued. In terms of the numbers of mortalities, the obvious solution is to have giant super-cows that can put out say 400kg of "mince" (I think you mean what we call ground beef), and an absolute elimination of fish, pigs, poultry, etc. However, many vegetarians are more comfortable with fish-eating than the eating of cows. And very many more are more comfortable killing bugs-- slapping mosquitos, or poisioning cockroaches, for example. But those are also lives. So are bacteria, but few vegetarians would recommend not washing so as to preserve them.

So obviously, it's not just the extinction of an organism that's involved. It's the value of the organism's life, in human terms, that we care about. Animals which exhibit nurturing instincts and other human-similar emotions are clearly valued more than those which do not exhibit them. This is the calculus that we are all revolving around in this thread-- how close to ME does an organism have to be for me to care about it? Family? Friends? Race? Species? Mammals? Warm-blooded animals that care for their young? Anything with a brain sufficiently advanced for it to suffer? Anything that avoids harm and seeks benefit?

It's obvious that the identification of sufficient similarity in other organism varies greatly among humans. Some see the world as themselves vs. 6 billion people who matter no more than bacteria. They'd literally eat a baby on a bun if they thought they could get away with it. On the other extreme, there are probably people so afraid to kill others that they have committed suicide to avoid impacting anything else.


For me, the things that define the value of human experience are not opposable thumbs, the ability to make fires, or the ability to work with Quantum Mechanics. It is in starting life with a loving bonded relationship with one's mother. It is about social interactions and altruism. It is about the joy of sensation, and the terror of damage to the self. And mammals and birds, while they have different physical forms than us, and much lower IQs (by our standards), are clearly similar in their capacity to feel and to care.

[KichigaiNeko]

Long term vegetarians do not do well.

What do you mean by "Long term"? I last ate meat in December 1991 and I'm doing well. Paul McCartney has been veggie since 1972 and he's doing pretty well for an old man. In fact, on average, vegetarians live 7 years longer than non-vegetarians.

Sorry, a generalisation. My bad.

If you want to eat meat, eat meat. There's nothing wrong with that. Just don't pretend there's something wrong with people who choose to eat differently to you when there isn't, because it makes you look a bit like a twat.

Who said I was attacking someone who eats differently to me? No need to get defensive.

As for 'pretending'? Studies are still ongoing.

[psychoslice]

Yes I am a vegetarian, have been for years, I love animals and try to look after my body, its the only one I have in this life.

[Rahul]

So 294kg of mince is enough meat to feed 45 people per year.

This can't be right. My father gives my family of 5 an entire butchered heifer every year. And we eat just about all of it except for the occasional roast we give away.

There's no way we eat 9 times more beef than the average person. My wife is a veggie lover so we always have tons of vegetables on top of any beef we eat.

And that's just the beef we consume. This isn't counting the chicken, pork, etc that we also eat throughout the year.

[Aractus]

This can't be right. My father gives my family of 5 an entire butchered heifer every year. And we eat just about all of it except for the occasional roast we give away.

I'm only counting mince, not steak. Most people would eat more steak than mince - unless they're either addicted to meat pies or beef sausages or to hamburgers.

---

However, many vegetarians are more comfortable with fish-eating than the eating of cows.

Vegetarians will consume animal products - dairy (if they're lactose tolerant), eggs and honey (I usually ignore honey since it's hardly a vital source of daily nutrition). So I look at the question of should a vegetarian who wants to have a low impact upon the lives of innocent animals consume dairy - it's really not a moral issue but vegans often claim that it is. Cattle have a comfortable life of leisure. So do Australian sheep, even if they are subjected to the "horrible torment of mulesing" - which is really about as painful and distressing as giving a kid an injection. At school there was a kid in my class who had Type 1 Diabetes and I thought it must absolute hell for him to have to jab himself with a needle every single day - but of course now I know that needles mustn't worry him much anymore if he's been doing every day for 14 or whatever years! Or taking your pet to the vet.

This idea that we treat our animals cruelty is wrong. Especially in a country such as ours (Australia), we're a very clean country we have regulation and laws, and we treat our animals vey well.

As for eggs - most eggs seem to be free range these days, regardless you always have that option so they can also be assured that the chickens are living well and happy. If a vegetarian still has misgivings then they could just keep their own chickens in a coop. There's many people who do this.

[KichigaiNeko]

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/country...beef-push/

Herdsman: Andrew Forrest at his Minderoo Station in th ePilbara. Picture: Ron D'Raine/The West Australian
Mining magnate Andrew Forrest and Elders are pursuing a deal that will change the face of the Australian cattle industry by opening up live exports to China.

The WA billionaire and the historic Australian agribusiness have joined forces in a venture likely to involve major Chinese meat processors.

The Chinese market is considered the holy grail for the Australian cattle industry, which is already scrambling to meet demand from Indonesia and other South-East Asian countries.

Experts expect that opening the Chinese market for the first time will create a spike in the value of grazing land, spark investment in bigger herds and lead to an increase in prices.

The deal provides Mr Forrest with a golden opportunity to supply prized Australian cattle to feed people living in cities built using iron ore from his Fortescue mines in the Pilbara.

Mr Forrest, whose family were pioneers of the WA pastoral industry, and Elders have worked on creating a supply chain into China since last year.

So much for the asian vegetarian diet.

[James2014]

The average cow in the USA over its life produces:

48,936 litres of milk
294 kg of mince
Plus of course leather

We know already from my previous calculations that the 48,936 litres of milk is enough for 125 people for a year - 1.07 litres per person per day (that sounds about right).

Thus, if you're a vegetarian and you eat dairy then you play a 1 in 170 part. So if you managed to live for 170 years your vegetarian diet would have eventually cost the life of one single dairy cow.

Great job on your post, though. Graphs and numbers = win.

Thanks!

If a cow lives for 5 years, then surely it would produce one fifth of 48,936L of milk per year? That would mean one cow could produce enough milk for 25 people right?

I think these discussions really highlight how difficult it is to separate the meat and dairy industries. One could exclude the deaths of calves which are a part of the dairy industry on the basis of those animal deaths being attributable to meat eaters, but on the other hand paying for dairy subsidises those meat eaters and therefore increases supply. To be able to tease apart which deaths are attributed to each industry is therefore almost impossible. However rather than trying to hypothetically deduce the number of animal deaths based on some contrived set of assumptions, one can actually look at the number of animal deaths that occur in the meat /dairy industry at present.

As I said before the average American diet is responsible, per person, for the deaths of 207 animals a year including:

1/8 of a cow
3/8 of a pig
5/6 of a turkey
and 26.5 chickens

[Bad Wolf]

For me, the things that define the value of human experience are not opposable thumbs, the ability to make fires, or the ability to work with Quantum Mechanics. It is in starting life with a loving bonded relationship with one's mother. It is about social interactions and altruism. It is about the joy of sensation, and the terror of damage to the self. And mammals and birds, while they have different physical forms than us, and much lower IQs (by our standards), are clearly similar in their capacity to feel and to care.

Well what about an orphaned, psychopath hermit, whose mother died during childbirth? Is this hypothetical person not human?

[Jacob(smooth)]

What "principles"? There are many reasons people choose not to eat animals.

As for "needing" meat... We obviously don't need meat, or vegetarians would all die prematurely. I've been veggie almost all my life, I don't think I've died or been ill from not eating meat yet, funnily enough.
Humans are omnivores, we can survive just fine with or without meat in our diets. Eat what the fuck you want.

The average cow in the USA over its life produces:

48,936 litres of milk
294 kg of mince
Plus of course leather

We know already from my previous calculations that the 48,936 litres of milk is enough for 125 people for a year - 1.07 litres per person per day (that sounds about right).

Thus, if you're a vegetarian and you eat dairy then you play a 1 in 170 part. So if you managed to live for 170 years your vegetarian diet would have eventually cost the life of one single dairy cow.
Thanks!

If a cow lives for 5 years, then surely it would produce one fifth of 48,936L of milk per year? That would mean one cow could produce enough milk for 25 people right?

I think these discussions really highlight how difficult it is to separate the meat and dairy industries. One could exclude the deaths of calves which are a part of the dairy industry on the basis of those animal deaths being attributable to meat eaters, but on the other hand paying for dairy subsidises those meat eaters and therefore increases supply. To be able to tease apart which deaths are attributed to each industry is therefore almost impossible. However rather than trying to hypothetically deduce the number of animal deaths based on some contrived set of assumptions, one can actually look at the number of animal deaths that occur in the meat /dairy industry at present.

As I said before the average American diet is responsible, per person, for the deaths of 207 animals a year including:

1/8 of a cow
3/8 of a pig
5/6 of a turkey
and 26.5 chickens

Sounds about right.
I'm willing to take responsibility for the whole of the 0.5 of a chicken as well. Prosthetic limbs for poultry are rubbish, I can't imagine it would have much quality of life as a double amputee.

[James2014]

Cattle have a comfortable life of leisure. So do Australian sheep, even if they are subjected to the "horrible torment of mulesing" - which is really about as painful and distressing as giving a kid an injection. At school there was a kid in my class who had Type 1 Diabetes and I thought it must absolute hell for him to have to jab himself with a needle every single day - but of course now I know that needles mustn't worry him much anymore if he's been doing every day for 14 or whatever years! Or taking your pet to the vet.

This idea that we treat our animals cruelty is wrong. Especially in a country such as ours (Australia), we're a very clean country we have regulation and laws, and we treat our animals vey well.

So in this fairy tale world where; chickens are not debeaked, cows are not forcibly separated from their mothers, and dairy cows do not suffer recurrent udder infections; do you not think it is cruel to deprive animals of the happy lives they live?

Slavery would be wrong even if the slaves lived good lives, their interests are still ultimately regarded as of lesser value to the slave masters interests simply due to characteristics of irrelevant moral consideration, whether that be their birth as a slave or their race. Similarly, when one kills an animal for meat one is disregarding those animals interests for one's own again based characteristics that many vegans consider to be irrelevant in terms of moral consideration, i.e. their species rather than the functional ability of the animal to suffer and feel.