My sympathies for pantheism

[Angrboda]

They can't measure its location because the particle they use to "measure" is close enough in size to the measrued particle that they can go anywhere when the hit eachother. Like trying to throw a stream of baseballs to find another baseball.

But if you use a auto bb gun to "see" a truck. You would know exactly where it is and where it is going.

Historically, the uncertainty principle has been confused with a somewhat similar effect in physics, called the observer effect, which notes that measurements of certain systems cannot be made without affecting the systems. Heisenberg offered such an observer effect at the quantum level (see below) as a physical "explanation" of quantum uncertainty. It has since become clear, however, that the uncertainty principle is inherent in the properties of all wave-like systems, and that it arises in quantum mechanics simply due to the matter wave nature of all quantum objects. Thus, the uncertainty principle actually states a fundamental property of quantum systems, and is not a statement about the observational success of current technology.

[MJ the Skeptical]

Pantheism to me just always seemed like poor Scientific analysis about the Universe. So, the universe is god to a Pantheist, but why such a Hasty Generalization when the universe was a starting point for existence at the singularity. The universe was clearly not a starting point for intelligence at the singularity (which theists of all stripes seem to always say) let alone a god/deity which would hypothetically be all intelligent/powerful/good/etc. Some have said Pantheists are just one step away from Atheists or even "Sexed up Atheists" but I don't see the correlation there. If anything, Pantheism could be looked at as the last step of rehab before kicking the theism habit. But it's quite different than being an Atheist I'd say, you still believe in the whole god thing as a Pantheist.

[sven]

Pantheism to me just always seemed like poor Scientific analysis about the Universe. So, the universe is god to a Pantheist, but why such a Hasty Generalization when the universe was a starting point for existence at the singularity. The universe was clearly not a starting point for intelligence at the singularity (which theists of all stripes seem to always say) let alone a god/deity which would hypothetically be all intelligent/powerful/good/etc. Some have said Pantheists are just one step away from Atheists or even "Sexed up Atheists" but I don't see the correlation there. If anything, Pantheism could be looked at as the last step of rehab before kicking the theism habit. But it's quite different than being an Atheist I'd say, you still believe in the whole god thing as a Pantheist.

I agree!
I talked about something related in another thread, so I'd like to add a little of my own thinking.
The pantheist probably thinks a bit like this: 'Look! Hydrogen and oxygen are bonding in the stars to become water! We humans need water to exist! The universe is ordering itself to suit the needs of life!'
(I base this thought on my somewhat limited understanding of pantheism.)
If this is true, I believe that their logic is flawed in several ways.

Also. I believe that those atoms just follow the path of least resistance. If it would be easier for hydrogen to bond with some other type of atom than oxygen, it probably would, I think.
The former statement may sound overly simplified and dumbed down. I'm not even really certain if I'm right. But what I'm trying to say is that i find it hard to believe or proove that oxygen and hydrogen give a rats arse about what we want or need. It would follow that the universe doesn't, either.

I'm thinking about the novel 'Solaris' by Stanislaw Lem.
The classic quote goes something like this:
'We don't want other worlds. We want mirrors.'

The pantheist really wants the universe to mirror his own more or less sub-concious beliefs and desires. But just like the fictional planet Solaris, the universe doesn't care about humanity.
Solaris doesn't need to be understood or explained by humanity to exist.

I was never infected with the 'god virus' so the thought or feeling that there was some grand design at work didn't really hit me. I just didn't think about it at all. That's what it feels like to be an 'organic' atheist. Its not a dreadful feeling of emptiness and meaningless despair at all. You can't really feel the loss or lack of something you never even imagined existed in the first place.

[archangle]

They can't measure its location because the particle they use to "measure" is close enough in size to the measrued particle that they can go anywhere when the hit eachother. Like trying to throw a stream of baseballs to find another baseball.

But if you use a auto bb gun to "see" a truck. You would know exactly where it is and where it is going.

Historically, the uncertainty principle has been confused with a somewhat similar effect in physics, called the observer effect, which notes that measurements of certain systems cannot be made without affecting the systems. Heisenberg offered such an observer effect at the quantum level (see below) as a physical "explanation" of quantum uncertainty. It has since become clear, however, that the uncertainty principle is inherent in the properties of all wave-like systems, and that it arises in quantum mechanics simply due to the matter wave nature of all quantum objects. Thus, the uncertainty principle actually states a fundamental property of quantum systems, and is not a statement about the observational success of current technology.

true, mine was a simple example.

wave like systems and quantum mech. What is the quantum world based on?

---

Pantheism to me just always seemed like poor Scientific analysis about the Universe. So, the universe is god to a Pantheist, but why such a Hasty Generalization when the universe was a starting point for existence at the singularity. The universe was clearly not a starting point for intelligence at the singularity (which theists of all stripes seem to always say) let alone a god/deity which would hypothetically be all intelligent/powerful/good/etc. Some have said Pantheists are just one step away from Atheists or even "Sexed up Atheists" but I don't see the correlation there. If anything, Pantheism could be looked at as the last step of rehab before kicking the theism habit. But it's quite different than being an Atheist I'd say, you still believe in the whole god thing as a Pantheist.

I agree!
I talked about something related in another thread, so I'd like to add a little of my own thinking.
The pantheist probably thinks a bit like this: 'Look! Hydrogen and oxygen are bonding in the stars to become water! We humans need water to exist! The universe is ordering itself to suit the needs of life!'
(I base this thought on my somewhat limited understanding of pantheism.)
If this is true, I believe that their logic is flawed in several ways.

Also. I believe that those atoms just follow the path of least resistance. If it would be easier for hydrogen to bond with some other type of atom than oxygen, it probably would, I think.
The former statement may sound overly simplified and dumbed down. I'm not even really certain if I'm right. But what I'm trying to say is that i find it hard to believe or proove that oxygen and hydrogen give a rats arse about what we want or need. It would follow that the universe doesn't, either.

I'm thinking about the novel 'Solaris' by Stanislaw Lem.
The classic quote goes something like this:
'We don't want other worlds. We want mirrors.'

The pantheist really wants the universe to mirror his own more or less sub-concious beliefs and desires. But just like the fictional planet Solaris, the universe doesn't care about humanity.
Solaris doesn't need to be understood or explained by humanity to exist.

I was never infected with the 'god virus' so the thought or feeling that there was some grand design at work didn't really hit me. I just didn't think about it at all. That's what it feels like to be an 'organic' atheist. Its not a dreadful feeling of emptiness and meaningless despair at all. You can't really feel the loss or lack of something you never even imagined existed in the first place.

leave the word god out. Can the universe be alive?

[MJ the Skeptical]

Pantheism to me just always seemed like poor Scientific analysis about the Universe. So, the universe is god to a Pantheist, but why such a Hasty Generalization when the universe was a starting point for existence at the singularity. The universe was clearly not a starting point for intelligence at the singularity (which theists of all stripes seem to always say) let alone a god/deity which would hypothetically be all intelligent/powerful/good/etc. Some have said Pantheists are just one step away from Atheists or even "Sexed up Atheists" but I don't see the correlation there. If anything, Pantheism could be looked at as the last step of rehab before kicking the theism habit. But it's quite different than being an Atheist I'd say, you still believe in the whole god thing as a Pantheist.

I agree!
I talked about something related in another thread, so I'd like to add a little of my own thinking.
The pantheist probably thinks a bit like this: 'Look! Hydrogen and oxygen are bonding in the stars to become water! We humans need water to exist! The universe is ordering itself to suit the needs of life!'
(I base this thought on my somewhat limited understanding of pantheism.)
If this is true, I believe that their logic is flawed in several ways.

Also. I believe that those atoms just follow the path of least resistance. If it would be easier for hydrogen to bond with some other type of atom than oxygen, it probably would, I think.
The former statement may sound overly simplified and dumbed down. I'm not even really certain if I'm right. But what I'm trying to say is that i find it hard to believe or proove that oxygen and hydrogen give a rats arse about what we want or need. It would follow that the universe doesn't, either.

I'm thinking about the novel 'Solaris' by Stanislaw Lem.
The classic quote goes something like this:
'We don't want other worlds. We want mirrors.'

The pantheist really wants the universe to mirror his own more or less sub-concious beliefs and desires. But just like the fictional planet Solaris, the universe doesn't care about humanity.
Solaris doesn't need to be understood or explained by humanity to exist.

I was never infected with the 'god virus' so the thought or feeling that there was some grand design at work didn't really hit me. I just didn't think about it at all. That's what it feels like to be an 'organic' atheist. Its not a dreadful feeling of emptiness and meaningless despair at all. You can't really feel the loss or lack of something you never even imagined existed in the first place.

I've never actually met a Pantheist but I imagine they would actually have somewhat similar views as a Theist but maybe more liberal views, much like a Deist. I think it would be a lot easier to talk with Pantheists than Theists and possibly even get them off of their Pantheism with a few conversations. I imagine I'd point them to some documentaries about space instead of giving them the technical jargon about the composition of the universe and the rest should take hold. A good understanding of what the universe actually is and is made up of is key.

Again, I think Pantheists may not have a firm grasp on the make-up of Universe itself, we don't know everything, but at least we have a solid model of the universe. It's especially frustrating if they call our universe a god when it's a completely different idea from a universe. Pantheism is conflation of two ideas and maybe that's why it's considered the last stop before Atheism. Since the logical conclusion with the current trend of evidence is that Atheists are probably right.

You're pretty dead on on the Physics part. Colloquially speaking, particles and atoms will just follow the path of their trajectory and don't have a mind of their own to do anything. I'm not sure if the Pantheist thinks that atoms have a mind of their own but they must think something along those lines of intelligent intervention if they think the universe is god.

[archangle]

I think there are many pantheist sects. Feeling warm and fuzzy inside is not a reason to reject or accept idea's for some.

little pieces make up you and you are alive. Little pieces of the universe make the universe. The atoms in you follow a overall pattern that form "you". Is there an overall patter in the universe that can make it alive? To me, the probability is higher for yes than no.

question: If you were standing on a Ca atom in the center of a person's tooth. Would you perceive the pattern of the person who tooth you are in?

Being empty inside and want not is meaningless to the Question "is it possible for the universe to be alive". also before the big bang is irrelevant to some. at the moment the universe was formed is as far back as we need to go for now. Heck, we were born, why couldn't the universe be born.

[jesus_wept]

As far as I'm aware naturalistic pantheists believe that the universe is synonymous with god, a metaphor if you will, and that's about it. They dont believe the universe was created for them, nor do they believe in intelligent atoms, magic, life after death, heaven, hell or any other sort of woo. They revere the universe, nature, reason and science and they are basically spiritual atheists who dont believe in the spirit world, if that makes any sense.

[archangle]

As far as I'm aware naturalistic pantheists believe that the universe is synonymous with god, a metaphor if you will, and that's about it. They dont believe the universe was created for them, nor do they believe in intelligent atoms, magic, life after death, heaven, hell or any other sort of woo. They revere the universe, nature, reason and science and they are basically spiritual atheists who dont believe in the spirit world, if that makes any sense.

perfect, thanks

[sven]

Joseph Raphson (the man who coined the term Pantheism) wrote:

"(Pantheists believe in) a certain universal substance, material as well as intelligent, that fashions all things that exist out of its own essence.”

If that doesn't mean smart atoms, I don't know what does.

Ha! I knew I'd read something like that somewhere. Thank you, wikipedia!

Also: "the pantheistic opinion of those who believe in no other eternal being but the universe"

-Leibniz

I.e. No separate spirit world.

[Alex K]

It sounds like it's much about this consciousness thing, it must permeate everything as micro-consciousness in order to explain how agglomerations of matter can have it.

P.s. it's Leibniz, i'm allergic to anglophone ei ie confusion