"Gödel's ontological proof" proves existence of God

[sven]

The proof is fatally flawed because it assumes the possible objective existence of positive and negative properties. Properties themselves exist, but they are neither objectively positive or negative. In short, there is no objective, natural ordering of any set of properties such that for any P(i) and P(j) in the set, under all possible worlds, P(i) is more positive than P(j), or vice versa. You can say nothing about the ordering of properties in all possible worlds, therefore it is impossible to postulate a being that is essentially positive (using the definition of "essence" given in the Wikipedia article).

Yeah? Well your technique is flawed!!!
*ninja move*

[ManMachine]

I thought that this was interesting. According to Godels ontological proof, the existence of god is possible. This leads me to wonder what God could possibly be, considering there is scientific evidence for his existence, albeit mathematical.
What are your thoughts?

Wikipedia overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_ontological_proof

How it works: http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/...es-it-work

News article: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germ...28668.html

[Chas]

You said

Then that god has no effect on us. Any effect would be detectable.

No effects? No god.

Suppose that one in one-octillion water molecules will carry a magical aura that can cure illnesses. The occasional sick person drinks one of these magical molecules and then recovers.
Medical scientists, being reasonable people, attribute this to what they already know exists—water—concluding that water speeds up recovery. Does that mean the magical aura has no effects, or that it doesn't exist?

That is one weird, flawed argument. If one in one octillion water molecules is 'magic', then it is not not common

There are approximately 3.34E25 molecules of water per liter, so one would need to drink, on average, nearly 3000 liters of water to get a magic molecule. The correlation would not be made.

[Coffee Jesus]

You said
Suppose that one in one-octillion water molecules will carry a magical aura that can cure illnesses. The occasional sick person drinks one of these magical molecules and then recovers.
Medical scientists, being reasonable people, attribute this to what they already know exists—water—concluding that water speeds up recovery. Does that mean the magical aura has no effects, or that it doesn't exist?

That is one weird, flawed argument. If one in one octillion water molecules is 'magic', then it is not not common

There are approximately 3.34E25 molecules of water per liter, so one would need to drink, on average, nearly 3000 liters of water to get a magic molecule. The correlation would not be made.

The American octillion is less than the European octillion.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octill...ge_numbers

[Coffee Jesus]

Each sick person is going to drink about 1-2 liters of water per day, so the effect would still be detected at 1 magic molecule per 3000 liters.

It actually comes out to 1 every 32.6 million liters (when you accidentally use the solid density of water, lol)
Here's the math using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water

Molar Mass = 18.01528 g/mol
Density = 917 kg/m3, solid = .917 g/m3
Moles per Cubic Meter = 0.917 g ÷ 18.01528 g/mol = 0.0509 moles
Moles per Liter = .0509 ÷ 1000 = 0.0000509

Avogadro's constant / one American octillion = magic molecules per mole
(6.022*10^23) ÷ (1*10^27) = 6.022*10^-4

number of liters = that times moles per liter over 1.
1 ÷ ((6.022*10^-4) * 0.0000509) = 3.262431986449163*10^7 or 32,624,320

But stop evading the question! If the effect were detected but misattributed, the magic molecules would still exist.

[Chas]

Each sick person is going to drink about 1-2 liters of water per day, so the effect would still be detected at 1 magic molecule per 3000 liters.

It actually comes out to 1 every 32.6 million liters (when you accidentally use the solid density of water, lol)
Here's the math using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water

Molar Mass = 18.01528 g/mol
Density = 917 kg/m3, solid = .917 g/m3
Moles per Cubic Meter = 0.917 g ÷ 18.01528 g/mol = 0.0509 moles
Moles per Liter = .0509 ÷ 1000 = 0.0000509

Avogadro's constant / one American octillion = magic molecules per mole
(6.022*10^23) ÷ (1*10^27) = 6.022*10^-4

number of liters = that times moles per liter over 1.
1 ÷ ((6.022*10^-4) * 0.0000509) = 3.262431986449163*10^7 or 32,624,320

But stop evading the question! If the effect were detected but misattributed, the magic molecules would still exist.

It would never fucking be detected.

[Coffee Jesus]

Aha! So you admit that an effect can be undetectable!

A god wouldn't necessarily be obliged to reveal its existence to us.

Then that god has no effect on us. Any effect would be detectable.

No effects? No god.

[Chas]

Aha! So you admit that an effect can be undetectable!

Then that god has no effect on us. Any effect would be detectable.

No effects? No god.

I said no such thing. How do you get that?

[Coffee Jesus]

Either way, your reasoning has holes in it. Just because an effect is detectable, that doesn't mean we will detect it. As the magic molecule effect would technically be detectable even though you suspect that "it would never fucking be detected."

[Chas]

Either way, your reasoning has holes in it. Just because an effect is detectable, that doesn't mean we will detect it. As the magic molecule effect would technically be detectable even though you suspect that "it would never fucking be detected."

There would never be a reason to suspect its existence.

It would not be detectable unless one could identify and isolate what water contained a magic molecule and what didn't.