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(July 8, 2014 at 7:05 am)Rayaan Wrote: Well it's not just about being imperfect or not good enough. It's more than that. Psychiatric drugs have been proven to cause life-threatening side affects, time after time, and many times they left patients feeling worse than they were before. And if suicide is one of the common side effects of antidepressants, then that's a serious matter, without a doubt. I don't see any benefits that can counter such a dangerous risk.
I don't think you're truly grasping the nature and power of mental illness. When you become overwhlemed by it, you'll stick hot pokers into your skull if you think that will make you feel better. Any benefit from a medication would be worth great risk, because living a life consumed by depression is not living at all. It's just waiting to die.
The issue with anti-depressants is really that they're over-prescribed. There's too much incentive to prescribe them.
July 8, 2014 at 10:15 am (This post was last modified: July 8, 2014 at 10:23 am by The Grand Nudger.)
@overprescribed
RGR that, I ended up with fistfuls of pills when I was in the service - not so much as a means to help me - as it was a means to stamp me RTD, return to duty. There wasn't anything in my symptoms that might be directly addressed by any medication they ended up putting me on, the thought being that my symptoms were just side effects of some form of depression and a dis-associative disorder. I would have offered that any depressive tendencies I had were pretty well rooted within my experience and reasonable. Terrible shit hadn't -happened to me- terrible shit was -continually happening around me-, and I found myself the cause of terrible shit on a daily basis as part of the requirements of my job. I don't see how anyone would have felt differently in my shoes. I'd propose that anyone who didn't feel like shit in my situation probably ought to be looked at under a microscope. I didn't want to sleep for fear of dreaming, and I couldn't eat for the abject disgust I felt. It was a palpable, physical presence in my stomach - constantly. Crackers made me vomit. My hands and face would tremble, mostly in response to sudden cracking noises or rapid drops/increases in pressure (doors in a heavily ac'd room opening or closing, a big storm blowing in fast, explosives being set off in my vicinity, small arms fire, etc). I absolutely did dis-associate, both from my own actions and from other groups of people who didn't wear the same type of hat as I did - exactly as I was trained to do. Never understood why they called that one a problem in the context of my service. Would be hard for me to imagine being able to carry out my duties and be an effective soldier if they hadn't conditioned me in that regard.
Did the drugs help? My general state of mind, yes. I was a smiling fucking lunatic - I'd sing shit like "criminal" (the fiona apple ditty) and time my breaths to the gaps in my firing pattern - blissfully unloading into equipment and people in an attempt to keep the rhythm of a song intact as my primary concern. I'm told that the effect was unnerving for anyone within ear and eyeshot. The people whom I was charged with training and leading kept a distance from me and essentially regarded me as fundamentally unfit and casually violent. My symptoms? No. They didn't even lessen until I left the service but I had to continue taking the medication so long as I was in or risk being turned into a desk jockey - which eventually happened anyway when an injury to my knee, thighs and groin made me useless as infantry (my daily regimen got even bigger after this, btw).
As soon as I got out I threw the pills away in favor of a little ganja and sleeping on the beach in W. Fl, lots of fishing- which I'd known from experience both to help me eat - and help me sleep. Was I prescribed drugs I didn't need? I'd say so, I understand why, but clearly it didn't help, and I'd never felt that their explanation was better than my own - in either case the drugs didn't do what any of us hoped they would - even though they "did something"; see above.
Just so this doesn't come off like too much of a sob story, there's a silver lining. I ended up marrying the mental health rep i was involved with, so it wasn't a total wash (cute girl, lots of college debt, joined the service for the bonus money) and we had a beautiful baby girl. It didn't end up working out, but them's the breaks. I resisted any diagnosis for ptsd, refused much in the way of medical and mental healthcare - all on the advice of some jackass in legal - in the hopes of reenlisting the very first day I was eligible after my discharge. Unfortunately, I can't ruck, so I'm a broken piece of equipment from the point of view of my specialty. Guess I'll never be Sergeant Major of the Army - which is a shame, because I would have been a damned good one. I live a happy (civilian) life, free from the rattling of pill bottles in my pocket and rounds on a belt, and I dream about my little brood of kids and my current wifes smiling mug. I still have tremors in my hands and face, I can still dis-associate at-will.
The only lasting effect of my service that bothers me in the least is body discomfort. I've got extensive scarring across my inner thigh and groin - something you never really feel comfortable flashing to a pretty lady - no matter how badly you want to "show her the business". My (current) wife says it gives me character, goes with the scars on my face, scalp, shoulders, chest, shins, underarms...and feet. Isn't it amusing how we can have pride in one group, and ego crushing shame in another? I bet somebody would prescribe me something for that too.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
You've hit on some key issues, Rhythm. Mental health problems are complicated and take a lot of time and effort to combat, so medication becomes the go-to treatment due to certain constraints. As in your situation, you didn't really have any other options, but a big part of the over-prescription problem is that we've become lazy in our approach to mental health. We either want or need the fix that will be the quickest with the least amount of effort. My previous psychiatrist was so over-worked that he barely had more than twenty minutes to talk to you, and there's not much a doctor can do with such little time beyond handing out pills.
Also, we've gotten to the point of diagnosing every little experience that causes us to feel out of the norm. As you said, your feelings were legitmate for your experience, but psychiatrists have gone a bit overboard with diagnosing proper reactions to life situations as something that needs medical treatment just because they cause us to feel abnormal. I read an essay once in which the author was astonished to hear a woman proclaim that she would have never survived the grief she felt from her dog dying if she hadn't been prescribed Prozac.
The fallout from all of this is that medication has become stigmatized and causes people that could truly benefit from it to be hesitant. I know I wrote earlier about how I've often wondered what my life would be like had I not been prescribed meds when I was, but I thinking back, I was severely depressed. I had to do something to cope, and if I had to do it over again, I would take the medicine every time. Besides, I wasn't even prescribed medication until I had been institutionalized for my problems.
My point is, there are lots of issues with anti-depressants, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Quote:The calculated risk for suicide among depressed patients who were treated with antidepressants was 141 per 100 000 person years and, among the untreated, 259 per 100 000 person years (i.e., 1.8 times higher among the untreated).
Quote:The gunman in Thursday's shooting at Northern Illinois University had stopped taking his medication and became erratic before opening fire inside a lecture hall, police say. Five people were killed before Stephen Kazmierczack killed himself.
In a society with a surfeit of guns laying around they do have a benefit...until the nut in question stops taking them.
@Rhythym - appreciate you sharing your experiences.
I have no doubt that psychiatric meds are over-prescribed, but as FNM said, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I doubt I would be here if it weren't for psych meds. In 2008 I went off the rails after being untreated for close to 25 years. Took several months of stabilization before I was able to effectively participate in my therapy, and *years* to peel back the layers of the onion. Nearly six years later, we're still working on it, though I've been off meds since late 2011.
July 8, 2014 at 1:31 pm (This post was last modified: July 8, 2014 at 1:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Oh, no, I absolutely wasn't trying to imply that we should do so. My little sister got a discharge after a corroded canister full of nuerotoxins was laid casually laid in her lap as part of a monday inventory. She has problems, man, and the stuff she takes (both for the pain and for the way it's massively screwed with her perceptions) make her a happier, healthier person - without which she couldn't hope to raise her son, my nephew. I see it working, and as I mentioned, I saw it working in myself, even if I don't think that the work it did really addressed my issues.
If you're supposed to be taking meds, fucking take em. I went off the rez on a hunch and got lucky. I'm still self medicating by any interpretation. Maybe 25 years from now I'll snap and brutalize some cashier for putting too many "l's into their sentences (I've done it before)- I don't know. I hope not, I don't expect it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Well it's not just about being imperfect or not good enough. It's more than that. Psychiatric drugs have been proven to cause life-threatening side affects, time after time, and many times they left patients feeling worse than they were before. And if suicide is one of the common side effects of antidepressants, then that's a serious matter, without a doubt. I don't see any benefits that can counter such a dangerous risk.
They DO have dangerous side effects. Like chemotherapy.
They ARE sometimes overdiagnosed and abused. Like antibiotics.
But they do sometimes make people better. Medicine ain't perfect.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
Sith code
Quote:The calculated risk for suicide among depressed patients who were treated with antidepressants was 141 per 100 000 person years and, among the untreated, 259 per 100 000 person years (i.e., 1.8 times higher among the untreated).
That was published 18 years ago, and many newer studies have increasingly shown that there is indeed a link between suicide and antidepressants, along with sudden cardiac death and violence towards others. Different patients may respond to medications differently, yes, but the various side effects still exist and some of them are devastating.
(July 8, 2014 at 8:54 am)Faith No More Wrote: I don't think you're truly grasping the nature and power of mental illness. When you become overwhelmed by it, you'll stick hot pokers into your skull if you think that will make you feel better. Any benefit from a medication would be worth great risk, because living a life consumed by depression is not living at all. It's just waiting to die.
I understand. It is extremely overwhelming for some people. The would rather die than live with such an unbearable amount of depression. So, yeah, what I was saying is much easier said than done. But again there's no apparent harm either in at least educating people beforehand about the potential hazards of the psychiatric drugs that are out there, whether they take them or not. That might make a little difference in some cases, I think. Knowledge is power. At least people with milder degrees of depression might be able to do something good for themselves by using this information.
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