What's your opinion of sharking?

[Zidneya]

in·dul·gent adjective \in-ˈdəl-jənt\
: willing to allow someone to have or enjoy something even though it may not be proper, healthy, appropriate, etc.

Indulgence. legal indulgence in my country means avoiding prison time or reduction of sentence by doing other kind of sentence.

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Oh, I see, this is all about your enlightened and mature attitudes about the punishment of juveniles? I don't understand, then, why you've chosen sharking, rather than making a post about the general principle of punishing teens, or of whether it's ever okay to treat them as adults.

Because that leads to many interpretations, contexts, points of view, (some contradictory situations)different views, multiple situations and therefor a variety of opinions. Because lt.'s be realistic, sexual harassment coming from one teen to another is a type of bullying(according to the New York City Alliance Against Sexual Assault: Facts for teens on sexual harassment). And sexual harassment of teens can occur anywhere—in middle and high schools, in the workplace, and in community (for example, neighborhoods or the internet). Sexual harassment happens not just between the sexes, but also among girls or just boys. You see al this questions. So I decided to provide a specific topic. You know instead abording all kind of sexual harassment just talk about one kind in this case sharking.

Certainly, there was no discussion about juveniles in the OP, which I find pretty strange.

Yeah I know first I want to know each opinion before touching this topic. You know, make perfectly clear what is sharking and how it happens. Then I was planing to focus on the perpetrators and by last discussing the how to deal with the criminals and preventing it.

Normally, when I start a thread about something, I make the OP about that thing.

Yeah but if I talk about this then people just come talk and take a posture and leave. I wanted to aboard this topic deeply. That’s why in the opening statement I just ask opinion, nor saying what my posture is about so we can all start by a single point.

I wouldn't start a thread about mind/matter duality, for example, entitled, "What do you think about kiddie porn?" and then surprise everyone several posts in that I was really talking about the philosophy of mind.

Of those who make it, watch it or judge it?

I'd title it, "What do you think about mind/matter duality?"

About kidding porn as well or a totally independent topic?

No, I think I do understand: you're full of shit. You obviously started this thread for the fun of being controversial, as supported by:

No that’s just my crazy nature to certain replies. But tell me a crazy sentence overrides every other statement, comparison and reference that I’ve made? Am I supposed to be this robot that should never neither smile nor show any laugh when people say something that I find funny in a serious discussion? I may want to discuss this topic guys but I’m not gonna enjoy life just because we are talking about a delicate topic(and let’s be realistic this isn’t a delicate subject as abortion, mutilation or euthanasia).

People rarely use cute smiley characters about things they consider horrific crimes.

If sharking ends up in rape I consider it horrifinc. But sharking(a teen grabs a clothe rips of a lady and runs) by itself. No I don’t consider it horrific. It is a crime but not an horrific one.

Nobody, for example, ever says, "Teeheehee, holocaust "

We had once a debate about overpopulation in college and they actually said that. I remember it because the straight A student said it while one of my friend who like gore even he was astonished as how could someone say this.

You also encouraged us to view this illegal content,

Only to understand it.

which I consider a borderline criminal behavior in itself, or at least unethical, since you're not supposed to encourage others to violate the rights of others:

Why? I’m not saying, first watch it and the talk. Nor first watch it and enjoy it. And it’s in youtube a public page I’m not telling people to pope over the private collection of videos of someone.

This indicates that you have knowingly viewed this sexual crime, and that you think others should also view it.

”Should” isn’t “must” but yeah.

It's also an insult toward the rest of the AF.org readership

Why? If I start talking about pro-life(I’m pro choice but this is just an hypothetical example) and encourage people to watch a full video of an abortion in order to convince them that. Is a(I’m gonna quote a friend of mine here) “horrible, and disgusting act” in order to make my statement will that be an insult? If I talk about euthanasia and I tell people to watch a video of a suffering suicide will that bean insult? I talk about psychiatric abuse and I advice people to watch a video about psychiatric patients being abused will that be an insult? If I talk about a person murdering someone discussing if it was self defense or attack or paranoia and I tell the to watch footage of that event and it’s a bloody video will that be an abuse?

-- why you think watching it would be more enlightening than just a verbal description I can't understand.

” Because an image tells more than a thousand words.
Because if we are gonna discuss the topic the least we should do is watch it with our own eyes before stat discussing don’t you agree?

In the end, when it very soon became apparent that nobody else was going to think that sexual "pranks" were funny even a little bit,

I don’t think that providing illegal medical services isn’t funny as well yet if a person provides them and therefor kills a person(I’m talking about a failed illegal medical operation) the society shouldn’t take in count the lives that that person has either helped or saved and therefor show mercy.

you began a truly epic backpedal, trying to turn your trolling thread into a serious discussion.

This is a serious discussion.

Nice save, but I'm not buying it.

I’m not asking you to.

I can only assume that you live in a backward-ass country where men still see women as playthings, and where sexual crimes are looked on with an unfortunate leniency.

IN THE FUCKING PUBLIC MINISTERY OF FEDERAL DISTRICT RAPED VICTIMS ARE ACCUSED OF PROVOKE THE PERPETRATOR WHILE THEY CRY I’VE SEEN THAT WITH MY EYES SO DON’T COME TELLING ME THAT I TAKE WOMEN AS PLAYTHINGS NOT THINK THAT I’M GONNA SIT QUITE WHILE YOU SAY IT. But you know what I’ve seen as well. I’ve seen criminals crying of regret. I’ve seen congestionated prisons. I’ve seen prisoners treated as less than humans and I’ve seen people saying it’s their fault and look the other way because they are prisoners. I’ve seen prisoners being served putrid Chicharrón and spiting the worms. My ex is a lawyer and she showed me a bunch of horrific thing that people do to prisoners(Do you want to see pictures of that?, To hear the testimonies? Or is that insulting you as well? Is asking you to watch with you own fucking eyes what you are critisisin an insult). And that's why I broke up with her. Because I’m so much of a pussy that didn’t have the stomach to take it. Because I got newsflash for you pal. Watching all that it hurt me, A LOT! Because at the end of the day they are human beings. And if you can’t relate nor show compassion with them I feel sorry for you. And feeling sorry for them doesn’t make me ignore the victims pain. And I’m not gonna apologize for showing compassion for those who no one care showing compassion. Gott it. So excuse me if I have second thought of sending a kid to that experience just because he riped a piece of clothes to a girl.

So fuck you, AND whatever medieval shithole you have crawled out from.

Yeah because the opinion of your majesty means so much to me. Insult me all you want I don’t care if you hate me. I don’t care if anyone else hates me I faithful to my convictions. Who the fuck are you?!! Why should I care about you or what you have to say? Google Zidneya. And you’ll find traces of my identity all over the web. But I bet that if I google bennyboy I won’t find even a quote of you. Because that’s what you are. A no one.

And, to repeat: fuck you, Zid. Everything you have said has been about compassion for the criminals, and not the victims of sexual assault. You started a thread to be controversial, and when everyone got offended (as they should; after all, we are human), you tried to do some major back pedalling. Too late. You have been found out as the misogynistic prick you are.

Yeah because it’s all the same to you isn’t it black or white, right or wrong, criminals or victims. And if I speak about forgiving teenage(not adults but teenage kid) Therefore I must be this misogynist piece of shit that overlooks the feeling of all women all over the world. Moral isn’t a black or white, criminal or victim, jail or forgiveness to me. Have you ever met a person that has been to prison Becky Bo? Because when you live in a country were one of ten is either gone to prison, has a relative on prison or has been extorted by the law. That it’s very difficult. Have you ever hugged the little brother of your best friend after the night released him from prison while he ask you if people will even treat him as a normal good human being after this. Have you lied to his face and the look at the the expression of his face when he sees that you are lying!! THEY FUCKING RAPED HIM WHILE HE WAS THERE GODDAMIT YOU STUPID PIECE OF SHIT!!! HAVE YOU EVEN MET A PERSON THAT HAS BEING INTO JAIL?, HAVE YOU?!!!! You know what was his crime DO YOU?!! I’ll give you a hint IT’S IN THE FUCKING TITLE OF THIS THREAD YOU STUPID BITCH ( YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE THE GUTS TO EVEN STAY IN A DISCUSSION TO THE VERY END)!!! WE WAS ONLY SEVENTEEN!!(Why didn’t I said it before? Well maybe it’s because IT’S NOT OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS, and I don’t feel comfortable talking about this, I had to as a favor to bail him out of prison) So do that and then come to talk me about being a misogynist will you!!

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I always go telling people that atheist have more moral growth. That they are more moral than religious people. But how can this be if the concept of compassion, redemption, kindness and empathy is lost?

How can an atheist forum, a place were you back up every statement form evolution to the color of signs. Ever since this thread started no one has ever provided me a more convincing piece of evidence or reference of why should children should be tried as adult for sexual crimes than “ because I say so.” Sorry but if you want to convince me of judging kids as adults you’ve gotta have to do better that “because I say so”
Well guess what most of the laws in the world recognize the difference between judging a teenager is not the same as judging an adult. Grab any law book and tell me otherwise. Any!! Either if it’s from Peru, Kansas, or Dubai. They will all say that teenagers deserve a certain level of compassion regarding their crime.
I joined an English atheist forum to practice my English and to expand my atheism. But you know what if you people can’t even show any kind of empathy to other human being just because they are criminal then I don’t need to wait for a vote of banning.

I don’t belong here.

[Losty]

Wow. Just wow. Wow. OMG wow.

Honey, if you want people to respond kindly to you...say what you mean and mean what you say. Ok.

.....do you live in Mexico? I'm pretty sure you said you did before.

You didn't ask about sentencing in your OP. You asked how we feel about sharking. What your friend did was wrong. It was not only a crime, but a horrible thing to do to someone.
Does that mean he's not a person? No. Does that mean he doesn't deserve compassion? No. It doesn't. Does that mean he deserved what happened to him? Absolutely not. That wasn't ok. It was wrong, very very wrong.

Mexico...well Mexico is a special case in my opinion. Let's say we isolate this discussion to only Mexico, should someone go to prison for sharking? No. Should someone go to prison for rape? No. Should someone go to prison for murder? No. No one in Mexico should ever go to prison. Why? Because Mexican prison are places people wouldn't even believe in their nightmares. Because there's nothing anyone could ever do in my opinion to justify treating them like they're sub-human. Maybe instead of freaking out in here...you could try to raise awareness in your community about the horrific treatment of prisoners in your country. Because regardless of the crime, cruel and unusual punishment is never acceptable.

No one even knew you wanted to discuss the cruel and unusual punishment of minors. You asked us what we thought of sharking and we answered. Sorry.

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One last thing I would like to add is that I find it incredibly frustrating that you chose to respond only to the posts that made you so angry while choosing to ignore my post. If you're still here at this forum, I would appreciate a response. And I would prefer if you would refrain from cyber yelling at me if at all possible.

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okay I'm gonna post my position so there will be no further misunderstanding.
Because I'm sick and tired of them.

• I don't think that a teen who comits sharking will certainly grow up to be a rapist or a sociopath.
  
• We should be indulgent with teen criminals who commit sharking.
  
• We wouldn't tried them as adults(because they aren't adults)
  
• No! I'm not ignoring the feelings of the victims.
  
• No I'm not saying this acts aren't crimes.
  
• No I'm not saying this crimes stop being pranks.
  
• No I'm not saying this crimes should be unnoticed nor unpunished.
  
• I don think that sending this kids to prison will neither solve the problem nor help them at all.
  
• Yes I care for the teen criminals(because they are still human beings and teenagers).
  
• I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IS SO DAMN DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THIS POINTS?(I'm not asking you to share them people I just wish that someone will take five second to read them and say: Oh so that is what zidneya thinks of sharking)
  

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A teen who comits sharking will probably not grow up to be a rapist, but may already be a sociopath.

We should not be indulgent with anyone who commits sharking or any other type of sexual battery regardless of age.

We should not try a teenager as adult for this crime unless he/she already has a criminal record of such behavior.

When you call it a prank it seems like you are ignoring the feelings of the victims.

Any type of sexual assault and/or battery is a crime. It's not a prank and it isn't funny. Most people are probably upset because I believe you said something along the lines of when I saw the videos, I was laughing. I wonder if you would find it funny if it was your daughter? I wonder if you knew a young girl whose body was published in a video on youtube after sharking and was now being severely bullied and harassed and extorted by her peers and contemplating suicide because she can't see any escape from something she never asked for that hurts her very much, I wonder if you would still say oh it was just a prank.

As far as I know, we don't generally send kids to adult prisons unless there is murder or actual rape involved. I would go as far as to say I don't think any of these people (regardless of age) should have to go to prison for a first time sharking offense. The teenagers should be punished obviously. In a way that leaves a lasting impression that what they did was wrong and is never acceptable or funny. They should also be mandated to attend therapy.

I still don't understand why you are yelling.

I read your views, and besides from the prank part I think I agree with you. What I don't agree with is the way you present it. Oh they're just kids, it's just a prank. No. They're criminals and what they've done is disturbing and they probably have some sort of mental problem that needs to be resolved so that they can learn and understand empathy. They need to be loved and valued and treated with compassion because they are kids, but they also need to learn a serious lesson about the crime they committed and get some professional help so they can understand that strangers are people too and their actions have a real impact on other people's lives.

I respect your right to have your opinion, but I don't have to respect your opinion and I will not agree to disagree on a subject I take so seriously. When you call it a prank, I take offense. When you call it a prank, I feel like you are lessoning the impact it could have on the victim. When you call it a prank I feel like you are dehumanizing the victims. So long as you continue to call it a prank, I will continue to tell you that you are wrong.

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[bennyboy]

THEY FUCKING RAPED HIM WHILE HE WAS THERE GODDAMIT YOU STUPID PIECE OF SHIT!!! HAVE YOU EVEN MET A PERSON THAT HAS BEING INTO JAIL?, HAVE YOU?!!!! You know what was his crime DO YOU?!! I’ll give you a hint IT’S IN THE FUCKING TITLE OF THIS THREAD YOU STUPID BITCH [size=medium]( YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE THE GUTS TO EVEN STAY IN A DISCUSSION TO THE VERY END)!!!

I know that it's easy to feign a big rage after the fact to get out of trouble. You hope if you shout enough and throw enough red herrings, people will forget that you're a sexual assault-supporting asshole. However, you're still an obvious liar. If you cared so much about your friend, you would have titled your thread something like, "My friend got raped in jail. . . should he have been there?"

Good job, by the way, of ALMOST getting through this thread alive without calling one of the female members a "stupid bitch."

I joined an English atheist forum to practice my English and to expand my atheism. But you know what if you people can’t even show any kind of empathy to other human being just because they are criminal then I don’t need to wait for a vote of banning.

I don’t belong here.

Wow, you must have powerful figurative legs to leap so quickly onto such a high moral horse. You've managed to go from openly proclaiming yourself a sexual abuser of others to making not only your sex-abuser friend, but yourself by association, victims of a hatecrime. That's about as convincing as Hitler accusing the Jews of dying horribly in front of him all the time, but you might actually get away with it.

[Little lunch]

I imagine Zidneyas' eyes getting bigger when the writing is bigger. At it's boldest and largest I can see the red veins.

[Aoi Magi]

Wow looks like I missed a lot of the discussion....I'll have to check how it got to this point.

Zideneyas, you said the crime and victim thing isn't black & white, to which I agree. But tell me this, how do you define a juvenile offender? By his age, right? You are so concerned about your friend because he is 17, but let's say he had just turned 18 or whatever is considered adult in your region, would that suddenly justify a harsher punishment? Age is a factor, but the crime is much more important, or at least logically should be. Also you've never mentioned or shown any concern for the woman whatsoever. Yes she didn't go to prison, but she might've suffered a trauma which might be just as bad. I understand that what happened to your friend afterwards might not have been what he deserved, and I sympathize with you for that. But please also understand that you are being biased towards your friend and are asking everyone else to be just as biased instead of looking at the situation objectively.

[Chas]

IT’S IN THE FUCKING TITLE OF THIS THREAD YOU STUPID BITCH

No, it's not.

I don’t belong here.

First intelligent thing you've said.

[Darkstar]

Indulgence. legal indulgence in my country means avoiding prison time or reduction of sentence by doing other kind of sentence.

Okay, but since it is already standard practice in most places to give teenagers lighter sentences, what exactly are we arguing about?

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After reading the rest of the post I can see that there is a lot going on here that wasn't obvious from the start. The thread title and OP asked what we though of sharking, and so we gave our opinions. It did not ask if we thought sharking teen should go to adult prison in Mexico and get raped. Clearly there has been some serious miscommunication here. But, I don't think I have anything else to add here, so I think I'm going to duck out of this thread before things escalate even further...

Maybe we've reached an understanding now? I hope so.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Why do you guys hate ziddy?

I'm serious

I don't hate him.

I think he needs to rethink his stance on this issue, because he's confusing things like pranks and crimes, and mercy and folly, and youthful zest and incipient sociopathy.

I don't hate him. I don't know him. But I don't think ideas like this should get airtime without serious countervailing views. I wouldn't want anyone mistaking my silence on this matter for apathy, and so I won't stay silent when I see such regressive views touted.

Also, I'm terribly unimpressed by anyone who talks shit about another guy's wife online.

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Now tell me what would have happened if you wouldn’t have gotten probation? What if! And let’s be realistic that’s a big what if.
Do you think that if they have tried as an adult what would have happened. Because that’s the topic that I’m discussing with this people. The think it’s okay to tried a teen as an adult. They think that sending kids to prison is the right thing to do to them. But let’s be realistic they don’t care about them at all yet they are claiming morality, but morality without a certain degree of compassion an empathy is empty, I mean it’s not like I telling them to forgive Al quaeda terrorist, I’m just telling them to be more indulgent with abunch of stupid teenagers.

First, I was looking at 18 months in a juvenile detention facility.

Second, what who here cares about is not something I'm an expert on; except to say that I see a lot of people showing empathy for the victims here, and little for the perpetrators, and rightfully so, in my opinion. You can keep on saying all you wish that these are teenaged pranks, but they have repercussions, they are sexual violations, and letting teens get away with this sort of behavior trains them to be callous little pricks who don't have the compassion and empathy you claim to be so concerned about.

Sometimes, buddy, tough love is good love.

And none of that changes the fact that if someone wouldn’t have been more tolerable because of your age your life would have been a lot more different.

Actually, you're wrong. They didn't take pity on me for my age, but because it was my first offense. Secondly, even if they'd thrown the book at my, my record still would have been sealed at 18, meaning I would have left that behind me no matter what.

Thirdly, what really changed my life was my father. The morning I came home from jail, he was getting ready for work, and glowering at me, shooting evil looks all morning but not saying a word.

Finally, I told him, "Dad, I know you want to say something, go ahead."

He stopped, thought for a moment, and looked at me. Slowly, and calmly, he said, "I cannot believe I raised a fucking thief," and then walked out of the room. Those were the last words he said to me for a month.

I will reiterate what I said: Thirdly, what really changed my life was my father.

Where are the parents of these little assholes, and why aren't they answering questions about the behavior of their juvenile children?

I never said it wasn’t I’m discussing the nurture and degree of the crime. An the contet of it along with the circumstances of the perpetrator.

I didn't say you did. I was emphasizing the point to underline my reasoning why I think these kids need something more than kid gloves.

Watch out Thumpalumpacus I just said those exact same words and people got really upset claiming that it is wrong doing that. And if they don’t complain
about you like they did to me. Tell me the secret.

I used the word "maybe", which indicates I might well be wrong; that's an element that seems to be lacking from your points, the idea that you could be wrong. Being willing to consider the thoughts of others is a good way to not only communicate, but learn.

Also, I was speaking in the past-perfect tense, meaning that in that particular case (my own) it might have been the case that that particular judge applied his own sense of mercy -- not that that was the right thing. The readers here were, and are, sharp enough to pick up on that.

Of course not. But let’s be realistic, he lives miles away, and if I ever try to seduce his wife that doesn’t mean she fall for me. It’s just hypothetical situation. Believe I had a friend during my twenties saying that he wanted me to borrow ma(at that time) girlfriend I just told him that; why the hell are you saying me this. Do the traditional way at least behind my back but don’t keep telling me that or I’m gonna punch you.

So much for your sense of empathy, then.

I just don’t have much respect for marriage that’s all.

Nor the people you interact with online, so far as I can see. And still you'd deign to lecture others about how we should try to understand the feelings of others?

Yeah, I'm not buying it. Carry on, as you were.