A few questions

[genkaus]

You'd do better asking it on Google. That's if you're genuinely looking for answers and not angling for a QQOQQ.

I Was asking for opinions not definite answers

Ofcourse not - actual answers would prick your little fantasy bubble.

[Vivalarevolution]

Hold on . . . Where did I imply that god did do it?

I was asking that since there is so much order in the universe, couldn't it also be a POSSIBILITY that a higher power made sure the big bang happened in such a way that the universe would work as we know it does now?

Anyway, the other guy wrote
1) the laws conform to the universe - well duh! Laws are obviously human made. A better question on my part would've been why doesn't the whole universe change the way it works as outlined by laws.( for arguments sake)

2)Does speed of light EVER fluctuate (change) in those materials?

3) okay the universe may not be beautiful for you. For me it is though. From the big bang to the present. How 13.7 billion years led to our intelligent lives.
First taking the milky way; a galaxy out of a number of others. The super massive black hole in the beginning, quasar that followed, the formation of the sun in one small corner of the orion arm, the formation of earth, and life upto us now. That is really beautiful for me.

4) energy only changes form, doesn't get created or destroyed

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I Was asking for opinions not definite answers

No you weren't.

I'll check out your answers and reply tomorrow

Boru

Meaning to say . . . I could easily get answers. I wanted what you guys think of it. By answers I meant posts

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If you don't mind I have a few questions.

Don't mind in the least, but (like Stimbo) I have my suspicions.

I'm orthodox Christian btw

Nobody's perfect, mate.

Why is the universe the way it is? Brilliant and beautiful?

This question is nonsensical on the face of it. However the universe is, it is going to be 'the way it is', and 'brilliant and beautiful' is a value judgment.

Why does it have to be in order?

The universe consists of all quanta and the space between all quanta. Thus, by definition, the universe has to be ordered.

Why can't it be chaotic?

See above. Without order, the Universe cease to be a universe.

Why can't the speed of light change?

It can and does, all the time. The speed of light is different in different media. But it you're asking specifically about the speed of light in a vacuum, there are new indications that it may vary slightly.

Why is gravity between two bodies proportional to product of the masses? Why not anything else?

I think you mean 'gravitation force' or 'gravitational attraction.' Because gravity is a function of mass.

(Note inversely proportional equation doesn't count).

Why doesn't it count?

Why can't the laws of thermodynamics be changed?

They can. Thermodynamics doesn't appear to apply (for example) on the quantum level.

Why are laws the way they are?

Based on this and the wording of your other questions, I suspect you have a misunderstanding of what is meant by 'law' in the scientific sense. A law is simply the expression, usually (but not always) mathematical of some observed behavior of the physical universe.

why is the energy in the universe constant?

Because the universe is a closed system.

Why can't it be destroyed or created

Because matter and energy are inextricably linked - each is a variant of the other.

why is heat transfer done from warm regions to cold regions and not the other way around

Because energy flows from areas of high energy to areas of low energy. The is why cars don't fall uphill.

In short, why does the universe need to conform to the laws?

I see I was right. The universe doesn't 'conform to laws' - the laws desribe the universe.

Doesn't the fact that the laws can't be changed or substituted indicate there could be a higher power that set it all in place?

No. We discover laws, we do not impose them. The notion of a higher power is untenable in the sense that the universe works perfectly well without one.

Hypothetically, the universe could very well be chaotic. But it's not

Hypothetically, no it couldn't.

You seem like a sincere bloke, so I hope you won't take amiss what I'm going to say. Learn a bit about science and how scientists suspect the universe works. You aren't discussing science in this thread - or even philosophy. You're simply spewing out of lot of non-stumpers you think we haven't heard before in an effort to validate your own belief.

Boru

Ya know what? I checked my question and your answer a few times now and I see nothing I've written that you've proved wrong. The only places we differ is in the laws part (I already explained what I meant in the reply to genkaus)

And I would never make an attempt at validating my beliefs on an atheist forum. I never mentioned the Christian god. All I was asking was if you agreed there could be a POSSIBILITY that a higher power made sure the big bang happened in such a way that the universe would work as we know it does now.

[bennyboy]

Why is the universe the way it is? Brilliant and beautiful?

It isn't. It's mostly dark, and beauty is your subjective opinion about it.

Why does it have to be in order? Why can't it be chaotic?

It is very chaotic, though there is also some order. Don't believe it's chaotic? Try predicting the weather. But your questions are broken, since you are asking about things without first establishing that they are as you say they are.

Why can't the speed of light change? Why is gravity between two bodies proportional to product of the masses? Why not anything else? (Note inversely proportional equation doesn't count). Why can't the laws of thermodynamics be changed? Why are laws the way they are?

Except for what you've said about light, the rest are pretty decent philosophical questions. I'm assuming you'll say, "We don't know therefore God," which would be a bad answer to good questions.

In short, why does the universe need to conform to the laws? Doesn't the fact that the laws can't be changed or substituted indicate there could be a higher power that set it all in place?

Why does yellow need to be yellow? It's just yellow. Google "brute fact."


I think you're making a mistake here, Vivalarevolution, in asking questions you think atheists aren't equipped to answer well. This is a mistake that is likely to bring you embarrassment or frustration, sooner rather than later. You should assume that everyone here, for example, has viewed and analyzed the debates of William Lane Craig. Not only do we know already know the arguments you're using, we know the terms for them. I recommend you google the terms "God of the gaps argument" and "fine tuning argument," since those are the arguments you are leading with-- and then search these forums for a preview of the vigorous responses with which you are about to get buried. You should also add "Kalam cosmological argument" to your list of searches.

[genkaus]

Hold on . . . Where did I imply that god did do it?

That is the answer you want - judging by this post.

I was asking that since there is so much order in the universe, couldn't it also be a POSSIBILITY that a higher power made sure the big bang happened in such a way that the universe would work as we know it does now?

Another POSSIBILITY is that there is a whole committee involved in setting up the big bang.
Another POSSIBILITY is that is that there are different individuals imposing order on different parts of the universe all of whom came after the big-bang.
Another POSSIBILITY is that the big bang itself wasn't set up and is causeless and the universe could've just as easily been completely different.

All these POSSIBILITIES have one thing is common - they are equally justified.

1) the laws conform to the universe - well duh! Laws are obviously human made. A better question on my part would've been why doesn't the whole universe change the way it works as outlined by laws.( for arguments sake)

A change like that would require something external - something that causes it to change - something like a higher power. If there is no external higher power capable of changing the way the universe behaves, the universe would keep behaving the way it does.

2)Does speed of light EVER fluctuate (change) in those materials?

Yes. Go learn about variations in refractive indices.

3) okay the universe may not be beautiful for you. For me it is though. From the big bang to the present. How 13.7 billion years led to our intelligent lives.
First taking the milky way; a galaxy out of a number of others. The super massive black hole in the beginning, quasar that followed, the formation of the sun in one small corner of the orion arm, the formation of earth, and life upto us now. That is really beautiful for me.

Good for you. Beauty is still not an objective fact.

4) energy only changes form, doesn't get created or destroyed

Please educate yourself:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Re...gy_gr.html

Meaning to say . . . I could easily get answers. I wanted what you guys think of it

What makes you think we haven't? You think you are the first theist to come along with these "profound" questions expecting we'd have no answer other than god?

[Jenny A]

Hold on . . . Where did I imply that god did do it?[/guote]
[quote='Vivalarevolution']Doesn't the fact that the laws can't be changed or substituted indicate there could be a higher power that set it all in place?

---- And just what might the difference between god and "a higher power that set it all in motion" be? Higher power is usually a synonym for god.

I was asking that since there is so much order in the universe, couldn't it also be a POSSIBILITY that a higher power made sure the big bang happened in such a way that the universe would work as we know it does now?

It is the "since there is" part that gets you into trouble. That suggests that order in the universe makes the possibility of a god more likely. I don't see that it does. Happy?

Anyway, the other guy wrote

What other guy? It's polite to address the people you are talking to by name. Try it, and the quote function. It makes threads a little less chaotic.

okay the universe may not be beautiful for you. For me it is though. From the big bang to the present. How 13.7 billion years led to our intelligent lives.

It's beautiful for me too. But that doesn't change the fact that there is also a whole lot of ugly. You see if I ask what beauty implies, I have to ask what ugliness implies too.

So once again I ask you two questions:

1) What does pain and ugliness in the universe imply about a higher power?

2) How is an ordered universe more improbable than an ordered universe created by a higher entity?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Ya know what? I checked my question and your answer a few times now and I see nothing I've written that you've proved wrong.

How could I? All you've done is post questions, and questions can't be 'proved wrong'. You asked questions, I supplied answers (and I was nice enough to not point out that you dodged a question I asked of you).

The only places we differ is in the laws part (I already explained what I meant in the reply to genkaus)

Yes, I read that reply, and I'm still of the opinion that you don't grasp what is meant by the term 'scientific law'. In science, there have been many laws and theories that have been discarded or modified as we learn more about the universe. But this isn't a function of a chaotic universe, but of the lessening of human ignorance.

And I would never make an attempt at validating my beliefs on an atheist forum.

Delighted to hear it.

I never mentioned the Christian god.

Actually, you did, when you described yourself as an orthodox Christian.

All I was asking was if you agreed there could be a POSSIBILITY that a higher power made sure the big bang happened in such a way that the universe would work as we know it does now.

Christ on a bike, do you not read your own posts? You asked nothing of the kind - you stipulated that a chaotic universe is possible (it isn't, for the reasons I gave earlier). Now you're simply spouting moonshine on the premise that if the universe COULD have been different, then your Christian god is responsible.

And don't hand me that guff about meaning just ANY higher power - there's not a Christian going who seeks to validate any god but his own.

You're a sloppy thinker, ignorant of basic science, and disingenuous in the extreme.

Boru

[Chas]

If you don't mind I have a few questions. I'm orthodox Christian btw

Why is the universe the way it is? Brilliant and beautiful?
Why does it have to be in order? Why can't it be chaotic? Why can't the speed of light change? Why is gravity between two bodies proportional to product of the masses? Why not anything else? (Note inversely proportional equation doesn't count). Why can't the laws of thermodynamics be changed? Why are laws the way they are?

why is the energy in the universe constant? Why can't it be destroyed or created

why is heat transfer done from warm regions to cold regions and not the other way around

In short, why does the universe need to conform to the laws? Doesn't the fact that the laws can't be changed or substituted indicate there could be a higher power that set it all in place?
Hypothetically, the universe could very well be chaotic. But it's not

I'll check out your answers and reply tomorrow

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Also notice, the actions and thinking of living things are the only things without law ( free will)

Go read a science book. Seriously.

[JesusHChrist]

Viva - isn't it a possibility the universe has always existed and came about via entirely natural means?

[Cyberman]

I Was asking for opinions not definite answers

Facts about reality are a matter of opinion now?

Sweet!

[The Valkyrie]

I Was asking for opinions not definite answers

Facts about reality are a matter of opinion now?

Sweet!

In that case I'm of the opinion that I'm Empress of the Universe and you should all worship me.