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[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given. you a clear authority
Explanation :
Verse 4:89 simply refers to hypocrites who were treacherous and were helping the enemy. And the punishment for treason, even according to the US laws, is death. Verse 4:90, often ignored by critics of Islam, clarifies the issue:
[4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
These verse were revealed at a time when Muslims of Madinah were under constant attack from the Makkans. An example would be when the Makkans conducted the public crucifixion of the companion of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Khubaib bin Adi. These would be classified as 'terrorist activities' according to the modern usage of the term. So what does this verse say in this context? "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you", "unless they (first) fight you there" - the context of this verse applies to those who initiate the attack against Muslims. And even after they attack, the verse makes it clear: "But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." And it also makes clear the purpose for what Muslims fight: "fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God". It is the duty of Muslims to defend humanity from oppression and persecution and to establish justice.
Dr. Maher Hathout writes; These verses were applicable to a particular situation or if, hypothetically, the same situation was to be repeated… Historically, fighting back against the aggressors was prohibited during the thirteen years of the Meccan period. After the migration to Medina and the establishment of the Islamic state, Muslims were concerned with how to defend themselves against aggression from their enemies. The aforementioned verses were revealed to enable them to protect the newly formed state by fighting in self-defence against those who fought them. However, the Qur’an clearly prohibits aggression. The verses explain that fighting is only for self-defence. Thus, a Muslim cannot commit aggression and kill innocent men, women, children, the sick, the elderly, monks, priests, or those who do not wish to fight.
Misconception: Martyrs will receive 72 virgins in paradise
This teaching is nowhere to be found in The Quran. It is a tradition associated with the reported sayings of prophet Muhammad, as recorded by others.
Some cite 44:54, 52:20, 55:72, 56:22 as evidence for virgins in paradise for men only, however the Arabic word "huri" in these verses can be the plural of both "awhar" (masculine) and "hawra" (feminine), but even if it is taken as female, the word itself would mean "companions pure/fair, most beautiful of eye".
There is also 37:48 (companions of modest gaze) and 78:33 (splendid companions, well-matched).
Sanctity of human life
The Glorious Qur’an says:
“…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” [Al-Qur’an 6:151]
Islam considers all life forms as sacred. However, the sanctity of human life is accorded a special place. The first and the foremost basic right of a human being is the right to live. The Glorious Qur’an says:
“…if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.” [Al-Qur’an 5:32]
Such is the value of a single human life, that the Qur’an equates the taking of even one human life unjustly, with killing all of humanity. Thus, the Qur’an prohibits homicide in clear terms. The taking of a criminal’s life by the state in order to administer justice is required to uphold the rule of law, and the peace and security of the society. Only a proper and competent court can decide whether an individual has forfeited his right to life by disregarding the right to life and peace of other human beings.
JIHAD While Islam in general is misunderstood in the western world, perhaps no other Islamic term evokes such strong reactions as the word ‘jihad’. The term ‘jihad’ has been much abused, to conjure up bizarre images of violent Muslims, forcing people to submit at the point of the sword. This myth was perpetuated throughout the centuries of mistrust during and after the Crusades. Unfortunately, it survives to this day.
The word Jihad comes from the root word jahada, which means to struggle. So jihad is literally an act of struggling, and this struggle can have various forms. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) referred to the struggle against the insidious suggestions of one’s own soul as a form of jihad. Thus the inner struggle of being a person of virtue and submission to God in all aspects of life, is part of the essence of Islam.
Jihad also refers to struggle against injustice. Islam, like many other religions, allows for armed self-defense, or retribution against tyranny, exploitation, and oppression. The Glorious Qur’an says:
“And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? - Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!” [Al-Qur’an 4:75]
Thus Islam enjoins upon its believers to strive utmost, in purifying themselves, as well as in establishing peace and justice in the society. A Muslim can never be at rest while there is injustice and oppression around her. Martin Luther King Jr., quite aptly said:
“We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people.”
Islam enjoins upon all Muslims to work actively to maintain the balance in which God created everything. However, regardless of how legitimate the cause may be, the Glorious Qur’an categorically denounces the killing of innocent people. Terrorizing the civilian population, whether by small groups or by states, can never be termed as jihad and can never be reconciled with the teachings of Islam.
( An article by Karen Armstrong on Sept,2001 further clarifies this misconception)
Islam is not addicted to war, and jihad is not one of its "pillars," or essential practices. The primary meaning of the word jihad is not "holy war" but "struggle." It refers to the difficult effort that is needed to put God's will into practice at every level--personal and social as well as political. A very important and much quoted tradition has Muhammad telling his companions as they go home after a battle, "We are returning from the lesser jihad [the battle] to the greater jihad," the far more urgent and momentous task of extirpating wrongdoing from one's own society and one's own heart.
Islam did not impose itself by the sword. In a statement in which the Arabic is extremely emphatic, the Koran insists, "There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2: 256). Constantly Muslims are enjoined to respect Jews and Christians, the "People of the Book," who worship the same God (29: 46). In words quoted by Muhammad in one of his last public sermons, God tells all human beings, "O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another" (49: 13)--not to conquer, convert, subjugate, revile or slaughter but to reach out toward others with intelligence and understanding.
So why the suicide bombing, the hijacking and the massacre of innocent civilians? Far from being endorsed by the Koran, this killing violates some of its most sacred precepts. But during the 20th century, the militant form of piety often known as fundamentalism erupted in every major religion as a rebellion against modernity. Every fundamentalist movement I have studied in Judaism, Christianity and Islam is convinced that liberal, secular society is determined to wipe out religion. Fighting, as they imagine, a battle for survival, fundamentalists often feel justified in ignoring the more compassionate principles of their faith. But in amplifying the more aggressive passages that exist in all our scriptures, they distort the tradition.
It would be as grave a mistake to see Osama bin Laden as an authentic representative of Islam as to consider James Kopp, the alleged killer of an abortion provider in Buffalo, N.Y., a typical Christian or Baruch Goldstein, who shot 29 worshipers in the Hebron mosque in 1994 and died in the attack, a true martyr of Israel. The vast majority of Muslims, who are horrified by the atrocity of Sept. 11, must reclaim their faith from those who have so violently hijacked it.
Okay kansins, let me ask this. Your a moderate, say I'm a wahabist. we are publically debating who's veiw of islam is right, you read that passage from the qur'an and I say it supports this and you say no mohammed is saying that. The thing is that as with most holy books it can be interpreted to support either view, how can you prove interpretation is right and mine is wrong when what we are doing is interpreting a text from a long dead author?
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
November 17, 2014 at 9:24 pm (This post was last modified: November 17, 2014 at 9:25 pm by Cyberman.)
Whoops, wrong thread. Don't read this.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
You know, one of the things I've noticed is that those who state most vehemently that this or that extremist group does not represent their religion or aren't real <insert your religion here> on forums and websites are often quiet on the extremists on other media whether in real life or other places.
Example: Riots in Sydney a couple of years ago by a "minority" of Muslims, yet only a tiny number of other Muslims, disgusted by their antics, actually confronted them about it.
If the majority speaks up the extremists will often - not always - be drowned out.
If the majority fails to speak out, the extremists see this as condoning their actions.
(November 17, 2014 at 8:47 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:
(November 15, 2014 at 9:38 am)Khansins Wrote:
About Apostacy :
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given. you a clear authority
Explanation :
Verse 4:89 simply refers to hypocrites who were treacherous and were helping the enemy. And the punishment for treason, even according to the US laws, is death. Verse 4:90, often ignored by critics of Islam, clarifies the issue:
[4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
These verse were revealed at a time when Muslims of Madinah were under constant attack from the Makkans. An example would be when the Makkans conducted the public crucifixion of the companion of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Khubaib bin Adi. These would be classified as 'terrorist activities' according to the modern usage of the term. So what does this verse say in this context? "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you", "unless they (first) fight you there" - the context of this verse applies to those who initiate the attack against Muslims. And even after they attack, the verse makes it clear: "But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." And it also makes clear the purpose for what Muslims fight: "fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God". It is the duty of Muslims to defend humanity from oppression and persecution and to establish justice.
Dr. Maher Hathout writes; These verses were applicable to a particular situation or if, hypothetically, the same situation was to be repeated… Historically, fighting back against the aggressors was prohibited during the thirteen years of the Meccan period. After the migration to Medina and the establishment of the Islamic state, Muslims were concerned with how to defend themselves against aggression from their enemies. The aforementioned verses were revealed to enable them to protect the newly formed state by fighting in self-defence against those who fought them. However, the Qur’an clearly prohibits aggression. The verses explain that fighting is only for self-defence. Thus, a Muslim cannot commit aggression and kill innocent men, women, children, the sick, the elderly, monks, priests, or those who do not wish to fight.
Misconception: Martyrs will receive 72 virgins in paradise
This teaching is nowhere to be found in The Quran. It is a tradition associated with the reported sayings of prophet Muhammad, as recorded by others.
Some cite 44:54, 52:20, 55:72, 56:22 as evidence for virgins in paradise for men only, however the Arabic word "huri" in these verses can be the plural of both "awhar" (masculine) and "hawra" (feminine), but even if it is taken as female, the word itself would mean "companions pure/fair, most beautiful of eye".
There is also 37:48 (companions of modest gaze) and 78:33 (splendid companions, well-matched).
Sanctity of human life
The Glorious Qur’an says:
“…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” [Al-Qur’an 6:151]
Islam considers all life forms as sacred. However, the sanctity of human life is accorded a special place. The first and the foremost basic right of a human being is the right to live. The Glorious Qur’an says:
“…if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.” [Al-Qur’an 5:32]
Such is the value of a single human life, that the Qur’an equates the taking of even one human life unjustly, with killing all of humanity. Thus, the Qur’an prohibits homicide in clear terms. The taking of a criminal’s life by the state in order to administer justice is required to uphold the rule of law, and the peace and security of the society. Only a proper and competent court can decide whether an individual has forfeited his right to life by disregarding the right to life and peace of other human beings.
JIHAD While Islam in general is misunderstood in the western world, perhaps no other Islamic term evokes such strong reactions as the word ‘jihad’. The term ‘jihad’ has been much abused, to conjure up bizarre images of violent Muslims, forcing people to submit at the point of the sword. This myth was perpetuated throughout the centuries of mistrust during and after the Crusades. Unfortunately, it survives to this day.
The word Jihad comes from the root word jahada, which means to struggle. So jihad is literally an act of struggling, and this struggle can have various forms. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) referred to the struggle against the insidious suggestions of one’s own soul as a form of jihad. Thus the inner struggle of being a person of virtue and submission to God in all aspects of life, is part of the essence of Islam.
Jihad also refers to struggle against injustice. Islam, like many other religions, allows for armed self-defense, or retribution against tyranny, exploitation, and oppression. The Glorious Qur’an says:
“And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? - Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!” [Al-Qur’an 4:75]
Thus Islam enjoins upon its believers to strive utmost, in purifying themselves, as well as in establishing peace and justice in the society. A Muslim can never be at rest while there is injustice and oppression around her. Martin Luther King Jr., quite aptly said:
“We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people.”
Islam enjoins upon all Muslims to work actively to maintain the balance in which God created everything. However, regardless of how legitimate the cause may be, the Glorious Qur’an categorically denounces the killing of innocent people. Terrorizing the civilian population, whether by small groups or by states, can never be termed as jihad and can never be reconciled with the teachings of Islam.
( An article by Karen Armstrong on Sept,2001 further clarifies this misconception)
Islam is not addicted to war, and jihad is not one of its "pillars," or essential practices. The primary meaning of the word jihad is not "holy war" but "struggle." It refers to the difficult effort that is needed to put God's will into practice at every level--personal and social as well as political. A very important and much quoted tradition has Muhammad telling his companions as they go home after a battle, "We are returning from the lesser jihad [the battle] to the greater jihad," the far more urgent and momentous task of extirpating wrongdoing from one's own society and one's own heart.
Islam did not impose itself by the sword. In a statement in which the Arabic is extremely emphatic, the Koran insists, "There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2: 256). Constantly Muslims are enjoined to respect Jews and Christians, the "People of the Book," who worship the same God (29: 46). In words quoted by Muhammad in one of his last public sermons, God tells all human beings, "O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another" (49: 13)--not to conquer, convert, subjugate, revile or slaughter but to reach out toward others with intelligence and understanding.
So why the suicide bombing, the hijacking and the massacre of innocent civilians? Far from being endorsed by the Koran, this killing violates some of its most sacred precepts. But during the 20th century, the militant form of piety often known as fundamentalism erupted in every major religion as a rebellion against modernity. Every fundamentalist movement I have studied in Judaism, Christianity and Islam is convinced that liberal, secular society is determined to wipe out religion. Fighting, as they imagine, a battle for survival, fundamentalists often feel justified in ignoring the more compassionate principles of their faith. But in amplifying the more aggressive passages that exist in all our scriptures, they distort the tradition.
It would be as grave a mistake to see Osama bin Laden as an authentic representative of Islam as to consider James Kopp, the alleged killer of an abortion provider in Buffalo, N.Y., a typical Christian or Baruch Goldstein, who shot 29 worshipers in the Hebron mosque in 1994 and died in the attack, a true martyr of Israel. The vast majority of Muslims, who are horrified by the atrocity of Sept. 11, must reclaim their faith from those who have so violently hijacked it.
Okay kansins, let me ask this. Your a moderate, say I'm a wahabist. we are publically debating who's veiw of islam is right, you read that passage from the qur'an and I say it supports this and you say no mohammed is saying that. The thing is that as with most holy books it can be interpreted to support either view, how can you prove interpretation is right and mine is wrong when what we are doing is interpreting a text from a long dead author?
You are very right. This is a danger which befalls when you start using Quran as a tool to justify yourself. Personally , I think first of Prophet Muhammad like if he was in my place , what would He have done ? And almost every time I have found a solution to my answers which satisfied me. For me , 'humanism' comes first. And I believe Islam is humanism. So when I will interpret something from Quran , I will do so positively with a positive perspective along with looking for texts that are for universal mankind .
(November 17, 2014 at 8:47 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Okay kansins, let me ask this. Your a moderate, say I'm a wahabist. we are publically debating who's veiw of islam is right, you read that passage from the qur'an and I say it supports this and you say no mohammed is saying that. The thing is that as with most holy books it can be interpreted to support either view, how can you prove interpretation is right and mine is wrong when what we are doing is interpreting a text from a long dead author?
You are very right. This is a danger which befalls when you start using Quran as a tool to justify yourself. Personally , I think first of Prophet Muhammad like if he was in my place , what would He have done ? And almost every time I have found a solution to my answers which satisfied me. For me , 'humanism' comes first. And I believe Islam is humanism. So when I will interpret something from Quran , I will do so positively with a positive perspective along with looking for texts that are for universal mankind .
The problem is that many others don't. They take the Quran and the Hadiths and derive an inhuman worldview, a murderous, misogynistic, evil one.
That is a problem.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
(November 18, 2014 at 12:42 pm)Khansins Wrote: You are very right. This is a danger which befalls when you start using Quran as a tool to justify yourself. Personally , I think first of Prophet Muhammad like if he was in my place , what would He have done ? And almost every time I have found a solution to my answers which satisfied me. For me , 'humanism' comes first. And I believe Islam is humanism. So when I will interpret something from Quran , I will do so positively with a positive perspective along with looking for texts that are for universal mankind .
The problem is that many others don't. They take the Quran and the Hadiths and derive an inhuman worldview, a murderous, misogynistic, evil one.
That is a problem.
When people want a literal Christian nation with christian morals they never take into account how evil their biblical literature really is until they get the punishment.
(November 17, 2014 at 9:25 pm)Beccs Wrote: You know, one of the things I've noticed is that those who state most vehemently that this or that extremist group does not represent their religion or aren't real <insert your religion here> on forums and websites are often quiet on the extremists on other media whether in real life or other places.
Example: Riots in Sydney a couple of years ago by a "minority" of Muslims, yet only a tiny number of other Muslims, disgusted by their antics, actually confronted them about it.
If the majority speaks up the extremists will often - not always - be drowned out.
If the majority fails to speak out, the extremists see this as condoning their actions.
Humans need to be realistic about what we can change and accept the things we cannot change. Evolution isn't going to change for anyone, and the reality is that evolution merely requires reproduction, while we evolved to figure things out, that still is not the core of evolution, it does not have the capability of caring what wins, fact or delusion.
Now, having said that, one huge problem I have with my fellow westernized moderate and liberal theists and atheists who cop out to "extremism", is that they fail to accept that the same books(OF ALL RELIGIONS) they point to to justify compassion and pluralism, are still the same source of where they get their morality from, and the same source the violent people and oppressors use. THE SAME BOOKS and the SAME SOURCE.
Now, no, you will NOT force religion out of existence via government, sure you can try, and oppress for a while, as humans have and again, evolution does not care if cruelty or compassion works.
My challenge is not an issue of rights, but a challenge to consider that if you are doing good and are compassionate, and you accept rightfully so others outside your group can also do the same, then be willing to consider that your morality is in you, not your book or your club.
It is no different than accepting say in baseball, that it is not that lucky bat getting you the home run, that "lucky bat" is merely your crutch allowing you to ignore you are doing it, not the bat.
(November 17, 2014 at 8:47 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Okay kansins, let me ask this. Your a moderate, say I'm a wahabist. we are publically debating who's veiw of islam is right, you read that passage from the qur'an and I say it supports this and you say no mohammed is saying that. The thing is that as with most holy books it can be interpreted to support either view, how can you prove interpretation is right and mine is wrong when what we are doing is interpreting a text from a long dead author?
You are very right. This is a danger which befalls when you start using Quran as a tool to justify yourself. Personally , I think first of Prophet Muhammad like if he was in my place , what would He have done ? And almost every time I have found a solution to my answers which satisfied me. For me , 'humanism' comes first. And I believe Islam is humanism. So when I will interpret something from Quran , I will do so positively with a positive perspective along with looking for texts that are for universal mankind .
This is the very problem. No one says that there aren't Muslims that interpret the Qur'an like you do. No one says that the moderates are not the majority. All I am saying is that there are a significant number of Muslims that have the other interpretation and create theocracies that breed extremism.
My problem comes when Muslims try to exclude those extremists from the religion. They are still Muslims, and they are interpreting the same passages that you are, just in a different way. My point is that the religion has some bad ideas in it that are dangerous, and therefore it is not out of bounds to state the same.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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