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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
February 13, 2015 at 5:29 pm
(This post was last modified: February 13, 2015 at 5:41 pm by Heywood.)
(February 13, 2015 at 5:09 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: I don't see how you came to the conclusion that those require intellect? Have you observed this intellect? Whos mind is it coming from? Have you observed this intellect actively guiding all change over every species at all times? If you could even begin to establish that such an intelligence exists them maybe we can talk about what requires it.
You really need to read this thread because all your question have been asked and answered several times. The question isn't whether or not intellect is actively guiding biological evolution. The question is do such systems come into existence sans intellect. Observations suggest that such systems do not come into existence sans intellect.
Can you present an observation of a such a system coming into existence sans intellect?
(February 13, 2015 at 5:19 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Please present an observation which falsifies my argument that there's a Magic Space Monkey hiding behind the sun. You can't? Oh, then it must be true.
We've looked behind the sun and observed there are no magic space monkies....Your argument is falsified by observation.
We do observe Heywood systems coming into existence requiring intellect. We never observe Heywood systems coming into existence sans intellect. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that it is likely that all Heywood systems, including those we can't observe coming into existence, require(d) intellect.
Now you can easily falsify this conclusion by presenting an example of a system, which has the elements of replication, heritable traits, change, and selection....which was observed coming into existence without intellect. It is easy......very easy......to find such systems coming into existence requiring intellect. Why is it so extremely difficult, that after asking for the last 108 pages of this thread, not one of you can come up with one example of such a system coming into existence without an intellect? Why are you guys having such a hard time presenting an observation which falsifies the conclusion?
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
February 13, 2015 at 5:45 pm
(February 13, 2015 at 5:29 pm)Heywood Wrote: (February 13, 2015 at 5:09 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: I don't see how you came to the conclusion that those require intellect? Have you observed this intellect? Whos mind is it coming from? Have you observed this intellect actively guiding all change over every species at all times? If you could even begin to establish that such an intelligence exists them maybe we can talk about what requires it.
You really need to read this thread because all your question have been asked and answered several times. The question isn't whether or not intellect is actively guiding biological evolution. The question is do such systems come into existence sans intellect. Observations suggest that such systems do not come into existence sans intellect.
Can you present an observation of a such a system coming into existence sans intellect?
I don't have to read it, observations suggest no such thing. You are simply asserting an intelligence, giving it credit for certain things, and then saying well you cant prove that intelligence didn't do it. You say you have observed this process, well where is this intelligence? Who is it? How does it work?
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
February 13, 2015 at 8:13 pm
(This post was last modified: February 13, 2015 at 8:15 pm by bennyboy.)
(February 13, 2015 at 5:29 pm)Heywood Wrote: (February 13, 2015 at 5:19 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Please present an observation which falsifies my argument that there's a Magic Space Monkey hiding behind the sun. You can't? Oh, then it must be true.
We've looked behind the sun and observed there are no magic space monkies....Your argument is falsified by observation. Your search clearly wasn't exhaustive enough, then. But it works for me, because by the same token, we've looked at actual evolution and observed that there are no magic Sky Daddies.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
February 13, 2015 at 8:16 pm
Wow, is this thread still going? I would have thought that after i showed that heywood's argument was self refuting, he'd stop using it. 
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
February 13, 2015 at 8:18 pm
(February 13, 2015 at 8:16 pm)Esquilax Wrote: I would have thought that after i showed that heywood's argument was self refuting, he'd stop using it.
One can dream... but this shipwreck is still sailing. Looks like we have a marathon runner over here.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
February 13, 2015 at 8:18 pm
(February 13, 2015 at 5:29 pm)Heywood Wrote: You really need to read this thread because all your question have been asked and answered several times. The question isn't whether or not intellect is actively guiding biological evolution. The question is do such systems come into existence sans intellect. Observations suggest that such systems do not come into existence sans intellect. Still cherry picking, I see. The question is whether such systems come into existence sans Earth-based, evolved organic life forms. Observations suggest that such systems do not come into existence sans Earth-based, evolved organic life forms.
That you are clearly trying to equivocate between human intelligence and that of God is a pretty sad testiment for the existence of an Almighty Creator, dude. I mean. . . reaching much?
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
February 13, 2015 at 8:21 pm
(February 13, 2015 at 8:16 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Wow, is this thread still going? I would have thought that after i showed that heywood's argument was self refuting, he'd stop using it.
He is right, we are wrong and he is going to hang in there until we acquiesce and he gets in the last word.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
February 13, 2015 at 8:50 pm
(This post was last modified: February 13, 2015 at 9:02 pm by Heywood.)
(February 13, 2015 at 5:45 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: (February 13, 2015 at 5:29 pm)Heywood Wrote: You really need to read this thread because all your question have been asked and answered several times. The question isn't whether or not intellect is actively guiding biological evolution. The question is do such systems come into existence sans intellect. Observations suggest that such systems do not come into existence sans intellect.
Can you present an observation of a such a system coming into existence sans intellect?
I don't have to read it, observations suggest no such thing. You are simply asserting an intelligence, giving it credit for certain things, and then saying well you cant prove that intelligence didn't do it. You say you have observed this process, well where is this intelligence? Who is it? How does it work?
Answered several times already in the thread. After 108 pages I no longer have the patience to rehash again what has already been hashed multiple upon multiple times over. I suggest you start looking for systems which contain replication, heritable traits, change, and selection. You can find these if you look for them. See if you can find any of these that you can definitively say have come into existence without intellect. You can find plenty that definitively have come into existence requiring intellect. You can find none that don't.
(February 13, 2015 at 8:16 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Wow, is this thread still going? I would have thought that after i showed that heywood's argument was self refuting, he'd stop using it.
Sorry Esquilax, if it makes you feel better about yourself to believe that you have shown my argument to be self refuting, go for it. Your mental well being is more important than this thread.
(February 13, 2015 at 8:18 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Still cherry picking, I see. The question is whether such systems come into existence sans Earth-based, evolved organic life forms. Observations suggest that such systems do not come into existence sans Earth-based, evolved organic life forms.
That you are clearly trying to equivocate between human intelligence and that of God is a pretty sad testiment for the existence of an Almighty Creator, dude. I mean. . . reaching much?
Benny, when I ask you guys for an example that refutes my conclusion, I am not cherry picking just because you can't come up with any that falsify my conclusion.
I'll examine everything you guys present. First I will determine if it contains the elements of replication, heritiable traits, change, and selection. Then I will determine if was observed requiring intellect to come into existence or if it was observed coming into existence without intellect.
If the example you guys ever get around to presenting is observed coming into existence without intellect, and contains replication, heritiable traits, change, and selection, I'll have to concede.
Its really that simple. You guys should not be dodging and obsfuscating for 108 pages when if your atheistic faith is correct, observations of these systems coming into existence sans intellect should be readily available.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
February 13, 2015 at 9:07 pm
So, still unable to tell us where we've observed an intellect that didn't originate on earth, eh woody? Or how to differentiate between smugness and rebuttal, apparently. 
Oh, and if you insist on this argument that evolutionary systems can only come about via intelligence, would you mind telling us all where the intellect that created the very first evolutionary system came from?
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
February 14, 2015 at 3:37 am
(This post was last modified: February 14, 2015 at 3:38 am by bennyboy.)
(February 13, 2015 at 8:50 pm)Heywood Wrote: Benny, when I ask you guys for an example that refutes my conclusion, I am not cherry picking just because you can't come up with any that falsify my conclusion. I don't need to falsify it. You need to prove it.
Quote:I'll examine everything you guys present. First I will determine if it contains the elements of replication, heritiable traits, change, and selection. Then I will determine if was observed requiring intellect to come into existence or if it was observed coming into existence without intellect.
I'll examine everything you present. First I will determine if it contains the elements of replication, heritiable traits, change, and selection. Then I will determine if it was observed coming into existence without evolved organic organisms.
Quote:If the example you guys ever get around to presenting is observed coming into existence without intellect, and contains replication, heritiable traits, change, and selection, I'll have to concede.
What part of the BOP being on the one making the assertion do you not get? You haven't provided any evidence that is relevant to non-organic systems, and evolution is not believed to have been created by organic systems. So provide some evidence supporting your assertion that non-organic evolutionary systems were made by non-organic intellects.
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