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Morality in Nature
September 23, 2013 at 4:17 pm
Within either a pack of wolves or lions, when animals that are low in the pecking order try to eat with the alphas, the alphas will snap at them or chase them off. Are the alphas teaching these subordinates that it is wrong to eat with them?
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RE: Morality in Nature
September 23, 2013 at 4:22 pm
Nah, the Alphas are just selfish and prideful.
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RE: Morality in Nature
September 23, 2013 at 4:27 pm
Wolves develop a pecking order that actually reduces aggression in the pack. When all members know their place and a new up and coming male isn't trying to take over they are fairly non violent with one another.
A lower ranked member trying to eat out of turn would involve the higher ranked members snapping at them to remember their place.
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RE: Morality in Nature
September 23, 2013 at 4:28 pm
(This post was last modified: September 23, 2013 at 4:33 pm by Jiggerj.)
(September 23, 2013 at 4:22 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: Nah, the Alphas are just selfish and prideful.
But the main alpha will allow (what's next in the pecking order? Lieutenants?) the lieutenants to eat at the same time. If this was pure selfishness they'd all be fighting to eat first. Right?
(September 23, 2013 at 4:27 pm)Rahul Wrote: A lower ranked member trying to eat out of turn would involve the higher ranked members snapping at them to remember their place.
Exactly. And that lower ranked member will learn that it is wrong to eat with those higher up in the pecking order.
I only thought of this because I didn't think morality existed anywhere in nature except for man.
In any social setting in nature where there is a structured hierarchy, the members of these group have to know their place - they have to be 'aware' of their place and follow the rules set by that particular group. Right?
There is an ALLLL-knowing, ALLLL-powerful, inVISible being who is everywhere, who created the WHOLE universe, who lives in another dimension called heaven, who is perfect in every way, who was never born and will never die, and who watches you every minute of every day (even when you're squeezing one out on the toilet). There are also unicorns, leprechauns, Santa Claus, an Easter Bunny, and a giant purple people eater.
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RE: Morality in Nature
September 23, 2013 at 4:55 pm
(September 23, 2013 at 4:28 pm)Jiggerj Wrote: In any social setting in nature where there is a structured hierarchy, the members of these group have to know their place - they have to be 'aware' of their place and follow the rules set by that particular group. Right?
Yes. The same is true with non-human primates.
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RE: Morality in Nature
September 23, 2013 at 5:02 pm
You can take the brussels sprouts from my plate without concern, but go for the ribeye and draw back a nub. Morality has nothing to do with it.
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RE: Morality in Nature
September 23, 2013 at 8:20 pm
(September 23, 2013 at 5:02 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote: You can take the brussels sprouts from my plate without concern, but go for the ribeye and draw back a nub. Morality has nothing to do with it.
Because of my thoughts on the wolf and lion (and all social animals) I am forced to play devil's advocate here. I actually agree with you, but I'd like to work on this to figure out why I don't think there's even such a thing as morality anywhere.
We can dislike a lot of things, but that doesn't mean it's right or wrong, or good or bad.
Is it wrong for an adult to have sex with an eleven year old? Western civilization calls it a heinous crime. Much of the Middle East not only considers it NOT wrong, but very right. The only difference is they call it marriage. So, we go to war on this and we win. That makes sex with children wrong. On the other hand, if they win, having sex with children is right. Is that moral? Does might make moral?
There is an ALLLL-knowing, ALLLL-powerful, inVISible being who is everywhere, who created the WHOLE universe, who lives in another dimension called heaven, who is perfect in every way, who was never born and will never die, and who watches you every minute of every day (even when you're squeezing one out on the toilet). There are also unicorns, leprechauns, Santa Claus, an Easter Bunny, and a giant purple people eater.
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RE: Morality in Nature
September 23, 2013 at 8:30 pm
If the only basis of morality in nature comes from survival of the fittest and "might makes right" then it's not really any kind of morality at all. Welcome to naturalism.
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RE: Morality in Nature
September 23, 2013 at 8:33 pm
(September 23, 2013 at 4:17 pm)Jiggerj Wrote: Within either a pack of wolves or lions, when animals that are low in the pecking order try to eat with the alphas, the alphas will snap at them or chase them off. Are the alphas teaching these subordinates that it is wrong to eat with them?
Naw, they're just saying "you're dead if you touch any of this before I'm done, you lowly peon".
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RE: Morality in Nature
September 23, 2013 at 10:23 pm
(September 23, 2013 at 8:20 pm)Jiggerj Wrote: Is it wrong for an adult to have sex with an eleven year old? Western civilization calls it a heinous crime. Much of the Middle East not only considers it NOT wrong, but very right. The only difference is they call it marriage. So, we go to war on this and we win. That makes sex with children wrong. On the other hand, if they win, having sex with children is right. Is that moral? Does might make moral?
No. Might does not necessarily make moral. Morality is subjective on some points though.
I don't believe in a god. Nor do I believe in some morality that transcends nature.
There is nothing new with this line of thinking.
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