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(February 22, 2015 at 12:08 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: What if the Muslims are right, does he then change his tune on sharia law, suicide bombings, and beheadings, does he then worship that god? I think that's always an interesting question to pose to believers who are arguing the superiority of their religion over another.
That's right. Your question gets right to the point: faith is a matter of indoctrination. That's why religions generally are regional.
How hard is it to break one's indoctrination? I know for myself it was a difficult, unplanned process which took a couple of years. I would imagine that losing faith altogether is probably easier than transferring faith to another deity. The former has reality pushing you along the road to factuality. The latter means that you have to be able to not only abandon your own just-so story, but to adopt another, equally ridiculous one.
(February 22, 2015 at 11:10 am)ether-ore Wrote: You demand (as If I owed you something) that I demonstrate somehow "How do you know that their God is not real"? A coupe of things... I could care less about the flag you threw to the ground, I am not subservient that you should talk down to me..
WAAAH WAAAH WAaaah, cry us a river! You can't answer the questions so you stump up and act like a child.. This is an atheist discussion forum. Look up at the header, it should give you a clue..
We know the answers to our questions, we're just trying to get you to admit them. No science, or evidence supports the wild ass claims of the mormon church. There is no one listening to your prayers and especially no one talking back in them. It is all a fancy delusion that you've grown to love.
You are doing nothing more than pretending to know these things your are saying. You have nothing to back up any of it, other than pointing to the "prophets" or some book written by a proven con-man.
Hardly something to build a world view on.
The founder of your religion was a base liar, conman, scoundrel and nothing more.
The Book of Abraham blows away any claim of divinity, prophet-hood, consistency or cohesiveness.
All you can do is a hand-wave, but that won't work very well around here. Your beliefs have the same foundation of sand as Muslims, Raelians, Sasquatch hunters, and the ancient astronaut lot - a bunch of unsupported naked assertions. Except, in the case of the Mormons, we have several smoking guns: the Book of Abraham being particularly damning.
For reasons only you know, this is acceptable to you. Now that is truly the "mystery".
(February 22, 2015 at 12:08 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: What if the Muslims are right, does he then change his tune on sharia law, suicide bombings, and beheadings, does he then worship that god? I think that's always an interesting question to pose to believers who are arguing the superiority of their religion over another.
That's right. Your question gets right to the point: faith is a matter of indoctrination. That's why religions generally are regional.
How hard is it to break one's indoctrination? I know for myself it was a difficult, unplanned process which took a couple of years. I would imagine that losing faith altogether is probably easier than transferring faith to another deity. The former has reality pushing you along the road to factuality. The latter means that you have to be able to not only abandon your own just-so story, but to adopt another, equally ridiculous one.
Yes I agree the indoctrination is very hard to break, mine went something like this: Catholic, Deist, Pararormal/Woo, Lost, Atheist.
February 22, 2015 at 5:25 pm (This post was last modified: February 22, 2015 at 5:30 pm by ether-ore.)
(February 22, 2015 at 11:41 am)The Reality Salesman Wrote: I'm not asking you to prove your God. Notice the subtle difference in this request.
Neither you, nor I believe in Allah and yet there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. Of those Muslims, many of them will say that you are praying to the wrong God and the path you've chosen, while noble to you, earns you the same fate as an unbeliever like me. Notice that this doesn't concern you in the least. If they're right, neither you or myself will be in the company of God after this life and neither one of us seem to care. Personally, I don't think any of you have good reasons to believe that any one of you is actually following any form of divine command, and so the Muslims and their ideas concerning my eternal destination do not worry me in the least. Sureky youve considered the fact that there are more options other than belief in the God that ether-ore thinks is right-or not. There are lots of other options. Im not asking you to prove your God. I know you don't follow your religion simply because it makes you feel good. You do and everyone else follow your religions because you have an idea in your head regarding the existence of a specific God and you are certain that what you are doing is what they want you to do. What I'm asking you to tell me is-How can you know that the others are wrong? What if they're right, and you've devoted your life to a folly? What can you say to the Jihadist Muslim who says that the way you've chosen to live your life is wrong? Why are they wrong? How do you know? Remember, they have faith as well, but in the end, either somebody is going to be right or somebody is seriously going to be wrong. Why should I be concerned about any of this?
I've given you my best answer and not to my surprise, you have rejected it. There is nothing I can say that will convince you. Having identified yourself as an unbeliever (atheist), you are probably as entrenched in your belief as I am in mine. Yes, my position is dependent on faith and yes I think Muslims are wrong because of their behavior, but there does not exist a way for me to convince either you or them that they are wrong. Revelations tell me that there are three groups that God Himself will convert in a day... Jews, Muslims, and atheists. God Himself as a consequence of His appearing will make the change. Until then... no way Jose. I've told you what I believe and there really isn't any more to say on this subject.
(February 22, 2015 at 5:24 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: You see ether,
You are doing nothing more than pretending to know these things your are saying. You have nothing to back up any of it, other than pointing to the "prophets" or some book written by a proven con-man.
Hardly something to build a world view on.
The founder of your religion was a base liar, conman, scoundrel and nothing more.
The Book of Abraham blows away any claim of divinity, prophet-hood, consistency or cohesiveness.
All you can do is a hand-wave, but that won't work very well around here. Your beliefs have the same foundation of sand as Muslims, Raelians, Sasquatch hunters, and the ancient astronaut lot - a bunch of unsupported naked assertions. Except, in the case of the Mormons, we have several smoking guns: the Book of Abraham being particularly damning.
For reasons only you know, this is acceptable to you. Now that is truly the "mystery".
ok
(February 22, 2015 at 5:16 pm)Brakeman Wrote:
(February 22, 2015 at 11:10 am)ether-ore Wrote: You demand (as If I owed you something) that I demonstrate somehow "How do you know that their God is not real"? A coupe of things... I could care less about the flag you threw to the ground, I am not subservient that you should talk down to me..
WAAAH WAAAH WAaaah, cry us a river! You can't answer the questions so you stump up and act like a child.. This is an atheist discussion forum. Look up at the header, it should give you a clue..
We know the answers to our questions, we're just trying to get you to admit them. No science, or evidence supports the wild ass claims of the mormon church. There is no one listening to your prayers and especially no one talking back in them. It is all a fancy delusion that you've grown to love.
February 22, 2015 at 6:51 pm (This post was last modified: February 22, 2015 at 7:21 pm by The Reality Salesman01.)
(February 22, 2015 at 5:25 pm)ether-ore Wrote: Having identified yourself as an unbeliever (atheist), you are probably as entrenched in your belief as I am in mine.
This is the crux of our misunderstanding. The biggest thing that separates you and I with regards to our beliefs is that I, as an Atheist, am not entrenched in any of my beliefs. I only keep the ones I have good reasons to support. I am always willing to change my mind in fact, I outlined very plainly what you needed to do to change my mind. I didn't reject any of your answers. You did not answer my question. If I asked you to explain how you distinguish a dog from a duck, and you started telling me about how the word duck sounds better to you, I would await an answer that is better suited to my question. I asked you to demonstrate how you can know that Allah is not the real God and that 1.2 billion Muslims are all wrong about the God they are certain to exist. You started talking about how your religion makes sense. That's not an answer that is suited to satisfy my question. If you take one thing away from this exchange, I hope it's the understanding that being entrenched in beliefs is only a problem for people of faith. When you form beliefs that are consistent with the evidence, the accuracy of your beliefs becomes important and the goal is not how long you can maintain a belief, but how well it reflects reality. It's a decision to nevER feel entrenched in a belief ever again.
I feel like this is a good place for this video. I don't care if it's a remake, it's great!
(February 22, 2015 at 6:51 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote:
(February 22, 2015 at 5:25 pm)ether-ore Wrote: Having identified yourself as an unbeliever (atheist), you are probably as entrenched in your belief as I am in mine.
This is the crux of our misunderstanding. The biggest thing that separates you and I with regards to our beliefs is that I, as an Atheist, am not entrenched in any of my beliefs. I only keep the ones I have good reasons to support. I am always willing to change my mind in fact, I outlined very plainly what you needed to do to change my mind. I didn't reject any of your answers. You did not answer my question. If I asked you to explain how you distinguish a dog from a duck, and you started telling me about how the word duck sounds better to you, I would await an answer that is better suited to my question. I asked you to demonstrate how you can know that Allah is not the real God and that 1.2 billion Muslims are all wrong about the God they are certain to exist. You started talking about how your religion makes sense. That's not an answer that is suited to satisfy my question. If you take one thing away from this exchange, I hope it's the understanding that being entrenched in beliefs is only a problem for people of faith. When you form beliefs that are consistent with the evidence, the accuracy of your beliefs becomes important and the goal is not how long you can maintain a belief, but how well it reflects reality. It's a decision to nevER feel entrenched in a belief ever again.
I feel like this is a good place for this video. I don't care if it's a remake, it's great!
February 22, 2015 at 7:32 pm (This post was last modified: February 22, 2015 at 7:36 pm by The Reality Salesman01.)
I know. Now think about why...
[edit] Just so you know, I can't answer my question either and I haven't met a single believer who can. That's why I'm an Atheist. The day someone successfully answers my question is the day I change my mind again.
February 22, 2015 at 8:15 pm (This post was last modified: February 22, 2015 at 8:21 pm by ether-ore.)
(February 22, 2015 at 7:32 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: I know. Now think about why...
[edit] Just so you know, I can't answer my question either and I haven't met a single believer who can. That's why I'm an Atheist. The day someone successfully answers my question is the day I change my mind again.
I don't believe you are going to find any answer concerning God by making comparisons. I think if you are really interested, you would be seeking to find God by coming to understand what He requires of you. In coming to understand this, the why of it will manifest itself in time and the nature and identity of God will as well. It should be obvious that God is not going to reveal Himself to the world... yet. Demanding that God reveal Himself to you before you would be willing to change your mind concerning Him, is not how it works. He is God, you approach Him on His terms, not the other way around.
Your observation that not a single believer has been able to convince you shouldn't come as a surprise. I think any believer will tell you that conversion will never come from anything a believer might say. All a believer can do is provide information. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that converts, and this will never happen unless you are humble enough to be open to it and in tune with it. These things are a matter of choice.
I just wanted to reiterate that the mistake you are making is expecting someone or God to come to you. It is you who has to approach God on His terms, in prayer and in the name of Jesus Christ and through sincere scripture study... not to find fault, but to understand.
February 22, 2015 at 8:57 pm (This post was last modified: February 22, 2015 at 9:07 pm by The Reality Salesman01.)
Ah! You were so close to understanding! Then you went right back to why I need to talk to Jesus without explaining the authenticity of Jesus over all the other available routes. Everyone else gives the same instructions that you just gave, they just swap out Jesus for some other incompatible God of their preference. I really wish you'd recognize the point I'm trying to make to you. Since they can't all be right, and you don't know that the others are wrong, it's dishonest, at best, for you to continue soliciting your religion as true when you've admitted that you're incabable of recognizing an imposter...
...and I'm not seeking God. You're speaking of one an Atheist site. You may want to consider what has brought you into this house of wolves, so to speak.
