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RE: Here's A Dilemma
February 24, 2015 at 4:32 pm
(February 24, 2015 at 4:30 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Nestor I agree with you but how much freedom do business owners have? What if I thought beards were inappropriate? Or red ties? See where I'm going? I think if a business is going to forbid wearing certain pieces of clothing there needs to be a justification of why it's necessary and impacts profit. I don't see the problem Blackout (you'll always be Blackout to me). My friend had to trim his beard for his job and he has to wear a suit everyday. He's not required to work there. But he likes getting paid.
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RE: Here's A Dilemma
February 24, 2015 at 4:34 pm
(This post was last modified: February 24, 2015 at 4:34 pm by Dystopia.)
Oh no I don't want to change my username again. I don't have a problem with policies in the workplace but I think there should be a line separating legitimate dress code rules and abusive measures. A question I'd like to make - Do the same business owners mind a worker wearing a Christian cross or a Christian symbol? If the answer is no, then I don't see why they should discriminate against a Muslim.
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RE: Here's A Dilemma
February 24, 2015 at 4:38 pm
(February 24, 2015 at 4:34 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Oh no I don't want to change my username again. I don't have a problem with policies in the workplace but I think there should be a line separating legitimate dress code rules and abusive measures. A question I'd like to make - Do the same business owners mind a worker wearing a Christian cross or a Christian symbol? If the answer is no, then I don't see why they should discriminate against a Muslim.
They can wear a cross all day long, just keep it covered under a shirt. There should be absolutely no complaint about this unless of course its not really about wearing the cross to be observant in some fashion.
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RE: Here's A Dilemma
February 24, 2015 at 4:39 pm
(February 24, 2015 at 4:34 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Oh no I don't want to change my username again. I don't have a problem with policies in the workplace but I think there should be a line separating legitimate dress code rules and abusive measures. A question I'd like to make - Do the same business owners mind a worker wearing a Christian cross or a Christian symbol? If the answer is no, then I don't see why they should discriminate against a Muslim. I see your point but yes, if I wanted to wear a giant cross around my neck, or on my head, and the business thought this was inappropriate or conflicted with the workplace environment they're striving to create, I would still side with the business in that case.
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RE: Here's A Dilemma
February 24, 2015 at 4:42 pm
(This post was last modified: February 24, 2015 at 4:45 pm by Dystopia.)
On visible religious symbols I can agree, specially if the business is secular/non-religious. This brings an interesting question - How much is the hijab a symbol of Islam? Do all women wearing it identify as Muslim? I don't know about you guys, but when I see a woman wearing a headscarf I don't assume she's Muslim (lately I've seen plenty - Syrian refugees, they're pretty peaceful, no terrorism) - After all, it is a piece of clothing.
I can see arguments from both sides and I've participated in debates with similar cases to this. Usually I end up deciding in favour of the worker for several reasons, usually because the law allows people to practice religion in the workplace within boundaries. If she wanted to pray during the work time I could see the problem, but if it's the headscarf I personally don't see reasons to not hire her - She probably already has a hard time getting jobs.
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RE: Here's A Dilemma
February 24, 2015 at 5:11 pm
If the dress code requirement is directly related to job-related hazards or would endanger the health or safety of the employee, I am all on the side of the business. For example, requiring men to be clean-shaven (or at most a mustache) in a workplace that requires respirators, either as regular use or in cases of emergency; forbidding robes or flowing fabric in workplaces with machinery where such apparel could get caught and endanger the employee; headgear that interferes with the proper fit and function of safety helmets, etc.
If the dress code requirement is entirely aesthetic, then I would side with the employee and require the business to demonstrate that allowing the employee to violate the dress code would be a substantial burden on the company.
In the case of the Abercrombie employee, there doesn't appear to be any health and safety related reasons that she cannot wear a hijab, it seems to be an aesthetic thing, so I would side with the employee until such time as A&F demonstrates that allowing her to wear a head covering would harm the business.
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RE: Here's A Dilemma
February 24, 2015 at 5:19 pm
I understand the need for aesthetics but there has to be a limit. I side with the worker most of the times. As an atheist it may be complicated for me to understand why someone really needs to wear a hijab to work, but the basic premise is that, as a theist friend of mine said, for religious people not wearing their sacred symbols equates with not wearing panties or something like that. I don't like religion, but I can sympathize with the fact some people are just not comfortable letting something they like stay on the closet, and I don't mind people wearing it. I wouldn't allow it for safety reasons though, such as the case of the Muslim nurse wanting to cover her arms
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RE: Here's A Dilemma
February 24, 2015 at 6:35 pm
(This post was last modified: February 24, 2015 at 6:37 pm by Mudhammam.)
I think the problem I have is the ridiculous notion of "religious symbols" (aside from the need to display them at work). What makes a symbol more or less appropriate because it is deemed religious? I personally despise what the Christian and Muslim symbols represent as much as I despise "Nazi symbols." Do I get to wear a swastika to work because it's part of my religious tradition, despite the offensive associations that would probably be made with it?
As far as the headscarf and its connection to Islam, I fully agree with you Dystopia, but the plaintiff and her supporters are clearly making it an Islamic issue. If I decide that I want to REALLY mimic Jesus because that's what my "faith" commands, am I allowed to throw a stink when my work sends me home for coming in wearing sandals and a garment?
My argument if I was Abercrombie and Fitch would be that part of their success is the image they portray (which in my opinion is trashy), and that the headscarf is opposite to the "sexy" modern look they're attempting to sell.
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RE: Here's A Dilemma
February 24, 2015 at 6:48 pm
(This post was last modified: February 24, 2015 at 6:52 pm by Dystopia.)
Because freedom of religion is a fundamental right and shouldn't be threatened - It isn't just the choice to pick a religion, but to change faith or to not believe. If we agree with the overall idea of freedom to worship (or not) we need to accept the fact some people will embrace religious traditions we disagree with. In your case religious symbols of Islam or Christianity are like Nazism but not everyone thinks alike, you are picking according to religions you dislike the most - The principle is to treat all religions equally, regardless of what others think of them. The case of Nazi ideologies is different because it's a political ideology, and believe me, constitutionally politics is treated different from religion all over the western world. It's not that I don't agree with you, but religion and political ideologies are different fields. I think religious symbols should be hidden if possible - The Christian cross can be hidden. The problem with the hijab is that it can't.
I overall agree with the modern look of Abercrombie and Fitch and I accept that she may not be hired, but lets not make it a habit to not hire people because of headscarfs (otherwise we risk creating a new category of unemployed)
As for your mimic of Jesus, I think moderation when applying individual rights is the key. A cross is fine, a headscarf may be fine, but no exaggeration. It's one thing to bring my personal crucifix, it's another to bring a giant painting of Jesus with me everyday. I believe I had a debate about this as well and we concluded that as long as there's moderation in allowing religious symbols (personal ones I mean) it's not a problem. It becomes a problem when it bothers other people significantly. In the case of the giant painting of Jesus, it can be an intimidating and embarrassing image for those who don't believe or believe differently - Not that a crucifix cannot bother people, but it can be hidden, and even if it can't the magnitude and size of the object is usually not enough to bother most folks
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RE: Here's A Dilemma
February 24, 2015 at 7:21 pm
(February 24, 2015 at 4:38 pm)Cato Wrote: (February 24, 2015 at 4:34 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Oh no I don't want to change my username again. I don't have a problem with policies in the workplace but I think there should be a line separating legitimate dress code rules and abusive measures. A question I'd like to make - Do the same business owners mind a worker wearing a Christian cross or a Christian symbol? If the answer is no, then I don't see why they should discriminate against a Muslim.
They can wear a cross all day long, just keep it covered under a shirt. There should be absolutely no complaint about this unless of course its not really about wearing the cross to be observant in some fashion.
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