What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Mystic]

Calling things spiritual obfuscates more than it explains anything.

Only to people who want to pretend they don't know what spiritual means.

[Catholic_Lady]

Can you rephrase the question? I don't quite follow what you mean...

Sure

The god of the OT is a monster, but the concept of hell does not appear until the NT and the preachings of Jesus; it's him that introduces the idea of tormenting the sinner for eternity without the possibility of appeal after the sinner in question is dead

Jesus also endorses the idea of thought crime, equating intention with action. This idea is totalitarian in essence: a law that is impossible to follow yet must be obeyed-on pain of postmortem torment

Having this in mind, how can you view the teachings of Jesus as moral?

Well first you have to understand that Hell is not a place you go to, kicking and screaming, where you will be burned and tortured by little men with horns. Hell is simply the only place where God is not present. And since God is goodness and love, Hell is a place where goodness and love are not present. That's why it is so bad.

The people who go to Hell are the people who reject goodness and love. For someone to avoid Hell, they don't necessarily have to believe in God. Maybe they were never taught about God. Maybe they just honestly could not bring themselves to believe He is real. This does not automatically mean they will go to Hell. What *does* automatically mean someone is going to Hell is that person's rejection of love and goodness, since God is love and goodness.

So the person who goes to Hell, a place where love and goodness are not present, is a person who *put themselves there* by choosing to reject love and goodness.

There is nothing immoral about Jesus being the messenger of this news.

As for your thing about thoughts... thoughts certainly can be immoral if they are intentionally indulged upon. For example, I am married. If I *choose* to sit around and day dream all day about having sex with another man, I am doing something immoral. I am not talking about involuntarily having a thought pop in my head and then brushing it away. I am talking about actively day dreaming and fantasizing about other men. A more obvious example would be a man who is attracted to children. If an inappropriate thought about children involuntarily pops into his head, and he pushes it away, he did not do anything wrong. But if he makes the conciese decision to sit there and start fantasisincg about rapping children, he is doing something immoral.

Jesus was simply reminding us that yes, thoughts *can* be immoral.

[Whateverist]

I can certainly attach a meaning, but it isn't necessary to divide the world this way.

[Catholic_Lady]

I have never heard of any pastor calling for the killing of gays/transgendered folks, or for the demise of people. But that is obviously very much against everything Jesus taught.

As for the pastors - there are many videos of actual sermons on the net. This is just one of them. Kyle commenting on it is what Americans call a liberal and atheist, but the video he's commenting on is the real deal. And this guy is kind of a serial offender, since he previously gave a sermon about killing gays to cure aids. But as I said, he isn't the only one. Rightwing watch among others collects these vids.

That's horrible!

[FatAndFaithless]

Calling things spiritual obfuscates more than it explains anything.

Only to people who want to pretend they don't know what spiritual means.

So you're claiming to know what's inside my head? I haven't the faintest idea what 'spiritual' means.

[Mystic]

I can certainly attach a meaning, but it isn't necessary to divide the world this way.

What I want to say is goodness manifests metaphysical life, not mere concept, but metaphysical value to living existence. But again, Atheists believe we are a product of the mind, in which, there would be no reality to even ourselves aside from an experience created by biological hardware and software.

[Catholic_Lady]

That's good to hear

I think we need a new sub forum "Questions for Catholic Lady" This is getting messy

Yeah I'm 4 pages behind now... I don't know if I'll be able to get to everyone's questions...

[FatAndFaithless]

I can certainly attach a meaning, but it isn't necessary to divide the world this way.

What I want to say is goodness manifests metaphysical life, not more concept, but value to living existence. But again, Atheists believe we are a product of the mind, in which, there would be no reality to even ourselves aside from an experience created by biological hardware and software.

What...does that even mean? And be careful about "atheists think X", you've been around long enough to understand that "atheists" disagree on all sorts of things besides "not believing in a god".

[The Grand Nudger]

But again, Atheists believe we are a product of the mind, in which, there would be no reality to even ourselves aside from an experience created by biological hardware and software.

Not much to do with atheism, you're losing your shit.  Nevertheless, whats the problem with that?  Are you unsatisfied with your reality?

[Mystic]

But again, Atheists believe we are a product of the mind, in which, there would be no reality to even ourselves aside from an experience created by biological hardware and software.

Not much to do with atheism, you're losing your shit.  Nevertheless, whats the problem with that?  Are you unsatisfied with your reality?

As I've stated numerous times, it's manifest we are a soul/metaphysical reality. I'm not unsatisfied with it, and I see we are linked to the judgement of the absolute when we get our value and it's manifest to me beyond doubt.

Atheists want to pretend a soul is some ambiguous thing we don't know if we have, but, the very fact we value people and judge them believe we believe there is something of value of real substance. The mere fact you believe you inherit your past actions shows there is a cosmic judgement we inherit and when you love someone, you aren't loving simply an experience but something of real substance and value.

It's not something that isn't manifest to us, but the signs in ourselves to our Lord and link to him is very clear.