What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Iroscato]

Go fuck yourself you arrogant, bigoted, condescending holier-than-thou cuntstain.
If that's against the rules here and leads to punishment so be it, but I will NOT let that kind of shit slide.

Welcome to my ignore list. (It was only a matter of time for you.)

I must admit I forgot about that feature, I will also implement it. I can't say I will miss your defiling presence on my online landscape either. Cheerio.

[Nope]

Catholic_Lady, I have really enjoyed the discussion with you. Hopefully this thread isn't about to become less pleasant.

Randy, I found those cases very quickly so there are probably many more girls that were molested.

Until recently, only boys could become altar servers and so the priest would have easier access to them; however, the fact that girls are also victims destroys your claim that gays in the Catholic Church are responsible.

So, your god will judge our country because two men fall in love and marry?

[Whateverist]

I just wish Randy wouldn't pollute this thread with his contentiousness. Many of us were enjoying conversing with a theist without an agenda. I guess I can make use of the same feature if it persists but I'd rather Mr. Holier-than-thou would just go mind his own threads.

[Catholic_Lady]

Randy Carson, I had never heard of that before. I do think that homosexuality is just as different from pedophilia of little boys as heterosexuality is different from pedophilia of little girls.

I think an attraction towards a child has little to do with heterosexuality or homosexuality. I don't see the connection here. Can you further explain how you came to this conclusion so that we can see where you are coming from?

[Iroscato]

My apologies for my outburst all and especially C_L. That guy just really rubbed me up the wrong way. Mass, systemic child abuse is horrifying enough as it is, going off on a homophobic tangent is just pouring vinegar on a very nasty wound.

[Catholic_Lady]

My apologies for my outburst all and especially C_L. That guy just really rubbed me up the wrong way. Mass, systemic child abuse is horrifying enough as it is, going off on a homophobic tangent is just pouring vinegar on a very nasty wound.

Apology accepted, no problem!

I am confident that Randy means no ill will. I have asked him to clarify the connection he sees between homosexuality and pedophilia, since the folks here (myself included) are not seeing it.

[Iroscato]

My apologies for my outburst all and especially C_L. That guy just really rubbed me up the wrong way. Mass, systemic child abuse is horrifying enough as it is, going off on a homophobic tangent is just pouring vinegar on a very nasty wound.

Apology accepted, no problem!

I am confident that Randy means no ill will. I have asked him to clarify the connection he sees between homosexuality and pedophilia.

I wish I shared your optimism. I've seen his trajectory on this forum for a fair few weeks now, very little has dissuaded me from my first impression.
Anyways, I don't wish to go all cloak-and-dagger, so I'll shut up until I can rejoin the conversation later
*Zip*

[Randy Carson]

This is kind of a spinoff of the WHY BE GOOD thread.

The question I have for atheists, isn't "why by good." I think it's simplistic and deeply flawed to think that the only reason to "be good" is to avoid Hell. And of course, I believe that anyone can be a good person regardless of beliefs.

The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

Religious or not, we all somehow know that certain things are intrinsically, universally immoral. Let's use murder as an obvious example. So if murder is wrong, where did this law come from? If this is a universal truth, where did this truth come from and who/what determined it to be what it is?

CL-

Now that your thread has been completely de-railed by the Catholic bashers, perhaps we could move back in the general direction of your OP and consider another related question: WHERE does objective moral truth come from? What is its source?

It seems to me there are a number of possibilities including:

1. Evolution
2. Oneself
3. Our society or culture
4. Reason
5. God

Evolution is often suggested as the source for our morality, but I don't think this really works. The evolutionary explanation claims that as our species evolved, human beings who acted in moral ways (such as those who cooperated and did not kill or steal) lived longer than those who didn't. As a result, we now have the instinct to be moral that has developed over millions of years.

While evolution may explain why we act in a certain way, it doesn't explain why we should or shouldn't act in those ways. At best, moral truths which are products of evolution are not commandments which we are bound to obey but suggestions that assist our "herd" in it survival. But if our community decided to kill handicapped children after birth, if would be moral, since weeding out genetically inferior or defective individuals would improve the overall health of the herd.

This is precisely what was behind the thinking of Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, who sought to eliminate those members of society whom she deemed to be "defective". And who can forget that Hitler sought a final solution for the "Jewish problem" in the concentration camps of Auschwitz and Birkenau?

And if rape were indeed an effective way to reproduce with a human community, and morality came from evolution, the rape would not be immoral, would it?

So, these are a few objections to the idea that evolution is the source of our moral behavior.

Thoughts on this before I move to the next source, the self?

[The Grand Nudger]

If Adam and Steve are married, then you see no reason (no, non-god based reason, of course) to call their relationship immoral, or inadvisable, right?

Probably not, so to answer you, right.

I wouldn't have the same understanding of sexuality if I did not have any sort of belief in God or a higher being of any sort.

-and yet, you don't think that Adam and Steve should be married.  I'm not interested in arguing that with you, people are free to have opinions, I don't have to agree with your opinion to enjoy your conversation or your company.  The thing that interests me, is that we can follow (just in our conversation, but certainly in other aspects of life) your gut and my gut consider the same thing, coming to the same conclusions over the same reasons....and both of us agree that everything going into that was good....

...and then this "god" business interrupts.

I just don't see why the author of righteousness would be such a disruption, such a departure...particularly if he wrote this morality into our hearts, as the saying goes and as you believe.  When you do a 180 from your gut and everything that came before.....and then say "because god"......well, I'm sorry if I can't help but mention that you seem like a much nicer, much more thoughtful (and well justified) person than that guy (yes, even nicer than jesus).   I don't know how this god stuff could help you to understand -why- something is good or bad...if his understanding is a 180 from your own before the conversation can even begin?

It's like saying that someone helped you to understood -why- blue was...except that everytime you called something blue they told you that it was orange. How is that even -supposed- to work>? The only thing this god seems to help you to understand....is that you're wrong.......? Just you and me...and Adam and Steve in the world...and we'd both officiate at the wedding..right? If we add just one more being, god......it suddenly becomes "a bad thing". It ever occur to you how strange this situation is?

(jesus christ,.....your thread got shittified hard since I was last on, that residual hostility business I mentioned at the beginning...there you go, now you know why)

[rexbeccarox]

CL-

Now that your thread has been completely de-railed by the Catholic bashers, perhaps we could consider another related question: WHERE does the idea of moral behavior come from?

(bold mine)

You disingenuous asshole! This thread was very nice, friendly, and interesting until you nosed your way into it. What, are you bored because we've lost interest in your threads because we have a Catholic who is civil and respectful, and therefore getting that treatment in return?

Go dig yourself into a hole.