What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[abaris]

I just meant that humans are more intelligent and more self aware.

What makes you say that? Nobody can look into their heads.

[Catholic_Lady]

The other problem I have with religious notions of sex as it pertains to morality is that plenty of other species, existing and extinct, have been engaging in *the act* for quite some time. Religions also ignore that we had been shagging ourselves into the future for almost 200,000 years before Abraham's god showed up and attempted to take some spice out of life. Furthermore, taking advice on healthy sexual relations from an organization whose leadership takes oaths of celibacy is akin to scheduling an appointment with a proctologist when you have a toothache, unless of course your tooth needs to be exposed before the dentist can help you.

We are more intelligent, have more self awareness and more self control than animals, so we are held to a higher standard.

There are plenty of animals who kill their own specie's babies (or their own babies), yet we don't think of them as cruel because we know that they don't know any better. We would not have the same leniency with people, because whether we know it or not, we do hold people to a higher standard. As we should.

And if the early humans knew nothing about God or sexual morality, they too would be held to a lower standard.

[abaris]

Do you think someone who hates gays and would love to have them all tortured and killed and actively day dreams about it for pleasure (yet is too cowardly to actually do anything about it outside his head), is still doing something wrong? Or a better question - does the fact that he chooses to think that way about gays and have that opinion about them still effects his character even if he never acts on it outside his head?

He's an ass plain and simple. But as long as it's just thoughts, nobody's actually hurt. It has no consequences in the real world.

[Catholic_Lady]

I just meant that humans are more intelligent ...

How many humans do you know that could survive in a rain forest with no tools or technology?

And does that mean humans of extremely low intelligence are less that a highly intelligent great ape?

We don't have the same strong instincts as animals, but we are still at the top of the food chain because our intelligence above theirs makes up for it.

I think a human would have to be mentally handicapped for them to be less intelligent/self aware/whatever you wanna call it than an ape.

... and more self aware.

Are you sure that you are more aware than a dolphin or great ape?
[/quote]

More self aware? Yes.

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We may have natural impulses, but we still have the choice to act on them or not.

A mindgame is just that - in your mind. It's not acting on any impulse and has no consequences. It's not acting, since it's only thoughts. That's where your understanding of religion makes you talk an entirely different language

I would argue that making the decision to start undressing people in your head and having sex with them, is an action.

Just because it is happening in your head, doesn't mean it is not an action. Don't you think that mental math, problem solving, and contemplating are all actions?

[abaris]

There are plenty of animals who kill their own specie's babies (or their own babies), yet we don't think of them as cruel because we know that they don't know any better. We would not have the same leniency with people, because whether we know it or not, we do hold people to a higher standard. As we should.

And if the early humans knew nothing about God or sexual morality, they too would be held to a lower standard.

No, there aren't than many species killing their own babies. They don't kill their own babies at all, but the babies of other males. And the ones that do that do it for the exact same reasons, human rulers of old have done the same in the past. Securing their own position when taking over.

And I would really recommend to look up the work of Brian Hare and Frans van der Waal on youtube to name only two. Their research is humbling from a human perspective. Also, you could look up a Gorilla named Koko while you're at it. She's learned human sign language while still being a baby.

And then there would be the holding to a higher standard issue. As long as we're at each others throats, fighting wars against each other, pounding our breasts over territorial issues as well as over ressources, there's no indication that we have moved very far from our ancestry.

We don't have the same strong instincts as animals, but we are still at the top of the food chain because our intelligence above theirs makes up for it.

Sure about that? Ebola says differently. And it's even one of the viruses that can still be contained. Truth is, a simple virus is able to take care of our superiority complexes once and for all.

[Catholic_Lady]

Do you think someone who hates gays and would love to have them all tortured and killed and actively day dreams about it for pleasure (yet is too cowardly to actually do anything about it outside his head), is still doing something wrong? Or a better question - does the fact that he chooses to think that way about gays and have that opinion about them still effects his character even if he never acts on it outside his head?

He's an ass plain and simple. But as long as it's just thoughts, nobody's actually hurt. It has no consequences in the real world.

Right, so there it is! You just made a judgment about someone's character based purely on something that is going on inside his head.

Since we can make judgements about someone's character based on what is in their head, don't you think it is perfectly reasonable for us God believers to assume God can too?

A person with a heart filled with hate for others will not enter heaven even if he never acted on that hate outside his own head. You may call that "thought crime" but I find it perfectly reasonable, and you just did the same thing above.

You may not agree that having a lustful heart is wrong, but can you see now what we mean about how it matters what is in a person's heart?

[The Grand Nudger]

We make mental judgements, sometimes they aren't very generous...but we do not imprison them, or execute them, or burn them for eternity............just for having had the audacity to think something we disagree with, that we find "icky".

Next?

[IATIA]

Are you sure that you are more aware than a dolphin or great ape?

More self aware? Yes.

How do you know this? Opinion or fact.

[abaris]

You may not agree that having a lustful heart is wrong, but can you see now what we mean about how it matters what is in a person's heart?

Trying to see it from your perspective, with a bedroom peeping god involved, the honest answer is yes. But on this matter we're simply speaking different languages.

[Catholic_Lady]

I just meant that humans are more intelligent and more self aware.

What makes you say that? Nobody can look into their heads.

Semantics aside, do you think that animals have the ability to contemplate doing the moral things verses doing the immoral thing in the same level that humans can?

You may not agree that having a lustful heart is wrong, but can you see now what we mean about how it matters what is in a person's heart?

Trying to see it from your perspective, with a bedroom peeping god involved, the honest answer is yes. But on this matter we're simply speaking different languages.

Good. I am glad you can see it now.