What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Randy Carson]

[quote='Parkers Tan' pid='970867' dateline='1434928706']

The idea that one of his instructions to slaves was not "Rise up, because the Good Lord will strengthen your right arm against the slave master", but rather, "be meek and obedient to him like you are to me" speaks volumes about not only his alleged views about slavery -- that it was acceptable because this world is meaningless, only the next one counts -- but also to the mindset he wants in his own believers.  Believers are not to question the master.  They are not to exhibit will of their own.  They are to accept and obey commands given them by the master, on pain of eternal punishment.

Of course such a god would endorse slavery in this world ... it is, after all, exactly what he has planned for you.

If you think Jesus condoned slavery, then what do you make of His commandment to love everyone, even our enemies, to love our neighbor as ourselves, and to treat others how we want to be treated?

Different people  wrote the bible. There was no god guiding the writings.

How would you go about proving that?

In the meantime:

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."

[Randy Carson]

I'm a bit late to the game here, but I've been prowling the first and last twenty pages or so for a bit and had a few questions. 

<snip>

What exactly are you saying here? Do Christians not claim their deity to be omnipotent, and omniscient? Could he have not made their "stiff necks" a bit more flaccid? That doesn't sound like an omnipotent, omniscient god to me; and at the very least, if he did have the power to pull a reverse-Pharaoh on them and didn't, he certainly doesn't seem like a deity worth worshiping. 

Could God force us to do something? Sure.

But He has chosen to give us free will and to honor it.

How much resentment would we have against God if He didn't?

[Ravenshire]

Do you really see immorality there?  Can you really not see how there was nothing moral or immoral about that?  If not, I really am done here.  I thought you were a nice person, C_L, but if you can really say, after that story, that what she did was immoral, I have real problems with your version of morality.

Gawd says it's immoral, so it is. Geez, Becca.











Your piano teach just gets less culpability. That the bullshit the cathy-lick church uses to hide their subjective morality behind a smoke screen and trumpet their gawd's perfect, objective morality from the rooftops.

[Ravenshire]

Unless she acted to save her child's life (which doesn't sound like it) I do not think it was a moral act.

Wow, I'm...

















































































Not at all surprised, sadly.

[Ravenshire]

You do not have to agree with my versions of morality. Likewise, I do not agree with yours either. We can have different morals and moral standards, and that is fine. I still respect your views, and I still think you are a good person despite our differences.

Doesn't that negate the concept of objective morality? ._.

No, she just thinks your morality is wrong, but respects it anyway. Not that that makes sense...

[Randy Carson]

It is understandable why rape and slavery are part of your list but why theft? I could imagine situations in which stealing would be more moral than letting your children starve.

Oh, gosh, C-L; I'm really sorry I missed your reply.

Murder: so, when God does it, it's not immoral?

Correct. That would be capital punishment...same as when we put a prisoner to death for a serious crime.

Rape: when God condones it it's not bad?

For context, in which verse does God do this?

Theft: do you really think that theft is an objectively immoral thing to do?  You can't think of any reasons why you might condone theft?

Adultery: My grandmother was dying with Alzheimer's for a LONG time- she wasn't herself for the last six years of her life.  Do you think it was objectively immoral for my 80-year-old grandfather to seek out companionship elsewhere while still devoting most of his time and energy to my grandmother?

Yes. "For better, for worse, in sickness and in health, till death do us part." Those words were part of my vows, anyway.

Slavery: when God condones it, it's not immoral?

I have already shown God softened slavery in ways that non-godly nations did not. I have also explained how God worked with His people over time to bring them to a more enlightened understanding.

Calumny: what if your god slandered Satan to make sure he didn't have more people to rule over in hell?  Would that be immoral?

No. The example is absurd, because slander is a false statement and God doesn't lie.

It seems weird that you kinda want him to, somehow...

[Ravenshire]

I share Becca's sentiment. I can't grasp how you can hold such abhorrent beliefs, CL. You don't sound like a good person to me.

To quote...

"Religion poisons everything."
~Christopher Hitchens

[Ravenshire]

So....basically you're saying whether someone did something wrong or not depends on the circumstances. Which means whether something is wrong depends on the circumstances.


Where does the objective part come in?

It comes in with that other bullshit claim of "inherent" properties.

[Randy Carson]

I would defend your god, on trial...under precisely the same grounds.

"Your honor, my client is clearly deranged.  I submit to the courts, The Holy Bible..............."

At which point, God says, "Sit down, Sonny...I'll take it from here.

2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.

More.

[Ravenshire]

Well like I told Robvalue. Even though you don't believe in God, you have to try to look at it through my lenses if you want to undertand my views. I believe God created morality. So morality is whatever He made them as.

And no matter if you say it's gawd's command, desire or whim, any moral created by it will be subjective by it's very nature, no matter what you wish to believe.