What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[robvalue]

There's some kind of irony involved when atheists have to teach certain Christians about their own holy book.

[Huggy Bear]

You're still wrong on slavery. The bible pretty clear on it being wrong to force someone into "slavery" against  their will. So is it "slavery" if you became a servant of your own volition?

Um. Yes. -_-

Slavery is
1) the state of being a slave
2) the system or practice of owning slaves

And a slave is
1) a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant
2) a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person

'Their own volition' doesn't enter the picture.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slavery

slavery
noun
1. the condition of a slave; bondage
2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3. a state of subjection like that of a slave : He was kept in slavery by drugs.
4. severe toil; drudgery.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bondage

bondage
noun
1. slavery or involuntary servitude; serfdom.
2. the state of being bound by or subjected to some external power or control.
3. the state or practice of being physically restrained, as by being tied up, chained, or put in handcuffs, for sexual gratification.
4. Early English Law. personal subjection to the control of a superior; villeinage.

You were saying?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_slavery

Voluntary slavery (or self-sale) is the condition of slavery entered into at a point of voluntary consent. In ancient times, this was a common way for impoverished people to provide subsistence for themselves or their family and provision was made for this in law.[1] For example, the code of Hammurabi stated that "besides being able to borrow on personal security, an individual might sell himself or a family member into slavery."[2] In medieval Russia, self-sale was the main source of slaves.[3]

In ancient times, one of the most direct ways to become a Roman or Greek citizen was by means of a self-sale contract. The laws surrounding Roman and Greek manumission made it quite possible for such erstwhile slaves to then become citizens or near-citizens themselves.[4]

Once again, you guys apply your modern day ideals to ancient civilizations. It was common practice for people to sell themselves into slavery if they were impoverished or owed a debt they didn't have the means to pay... what solution would you offer? Especially in a society that was based on the bartering system, seeing how the Hebrews just came out of slavery under the Egyptians.

If a homeless person agreed to work for me in exchange of food and shelter, it's your position that it's immoral?

[Longhorn]

Voluntary slavery (or self-sale) is the condition of slavery entered into at a point of voluntary consent. In ancient times, this was a common way for impoverished people to provide subsistence for themselves or their family and provision was made for this in law.[1] For example, the code of Hammurabi stated that "besides being able to borrow on personal security, an individual might sell himself or a family member into slavery."[2] In medieval Russia, self-sale was the main source of slaves.[3]

In ancient times, one of the most direct ways to become a Roman or Greek citizen was by means of a self-sale contract. The laws surrounding Roman and Greek manumission made it quite possible for such erstwhile slaves to then become citizens or near-citizens themselves.[4]

That's. Still. Slavery.

Ffs it has slavery in the name -_-

Once again, you guys apply your modern day ideals to ancient civilizations. It was common practice for people to sell themselves into slavery if they were impoverished or owed a debt they didn't have the means to pay... what solution would you offer?

Some choice that is. 'Your money or your life'....

If a homeless person agreed to work for me in exchange of food and shelter, it's your position that it's immoral?

If you were to beat them and treat them as property, yes.


You're really defending slavery right now. Wow -_-

[Huggy Bear]

Huggy, the Hebrews had certain rights but foreigners did not. Any slave, Hebrew or not, could be beaten as long as they don't die within a certain time frame.

There is nothing in the Bible that states a "slave" CAN be beaten, just procedures to follow in case they ARE beaten.

If a "slave" was beaten and he died, then the master was put to death. The reason they weren't put to death if they died a few days later is because then the death is seen as accidental.

If a "slave" was permanently injured, then they were to be set free.

[Huggy Bear]

That's. Still. Slavery.

Ffs it has slavery in the name -_-

Once again, you guys apply your modern day ideals to ancient civilizations. It was common practice for people to sell themselves into slavery if they were impoverished or owed a debt they didn't have the means to pay... what solution would you offer?

Some choice that is. 'Your money or your life'....

That's nothing new.
Try not paying your taxes and see how fast you get put in prison, making license plates or whatever work they make inmates do nowadays.

If a homeless person agreed to work for me in exchange of food and shelter, it's your position that it's immoral?

If you were to beat them and treat them as property, yes.

Beating anyone is immoral...that wasn't what I asked, I like how you had to add those caveats to fit your narrative.

You're really defending slavery right now. Wow -_-

No, I'm defending a persons right to do whatever he chooses to do with his own life...
After all, what two consenting adults agree to is their business, right?

[Brakeman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_slavery

[b]Voluntary slavery (or self-sale) is the condition of slavery entered into at a point of voluntary consent. ..

Once again, you guys apply your modern day ideals to ancient civilizations. It was common practice for people to sell themselves into slavery if they were impoverished or owed a debt they didn't have the means to pay... what solution would you offer? Especially in a society that was based on the bartering system, seeing how the Hebrews just came out of slavery under the Egyptians.

If a homeless person agreed to work for me in exchange of food and shelter, it's your position that it's immoral?

Very dishonestly you left off the explanation portion of the wiki article that explains why the term is non-sense.

Modern Analysis

Jean-Jacques Rousseau contends that in a contract of self-enslavement, there is no mutuality. The slave loses all. The contract negates his interests and his rights. It is entirely to his disadvantage. Since the slave loses his status as a moral agent once the slave contract is enforced, the slave cannot act to enforce anything owed to him by his master. Rousseau contrasted this to the social contract, in that the subjects of the government have control over their masters.[5] John Stuart Mill wrote a critique of voluntary slavery as a criticism of paternalism.[6]

This means that slavery is not a form of "payment" as indentured servitude because the slave losses all rights to self determination and cannot enforce his part of the bargain or contract. In indentured servitude a man had rights of redress in which he was only endeared to work off and suffer an amount that was owed, whereas slavery is a total loss of identity to a master. An indentured servant owed a limited value, not his lifetime and being.

If you gave a meal worth 10 dollars to a homeless person, you could expect 10 dollars worth of respectable work if he was in agreement as a form of indentured servatude. What he could not and would not consent to is to be your slave in which you could toy with his dignity as a cat does with a ball, take any thing and everything from him forever without regards to its equivalence to your initial payment. You could not beat him and refuse to allow him to ever retreat from his bondage until you and only you felt like it.

No, the modern world sees the evil in that and huge numbers of soldiers fought and died to wipe that horrible practice from the earth, We will not allow you to enslave a homeless person just because you baited him with food.

[Longhorn]

That's nothing new.
Try not paying your taxes and see how fast you get put in prison, making license plates or whatever work they make inmates do nowadays.

So now you're comparing a crime to selling yourself into slavery? -_-

Beating anyone is immoral...that wasn't what I asked, I like how you had to add those caveats to fit your narrative.

I like how you completely ignored the part about one person being the other person's property. Convenient.

That was a loaded question. But why would I expect intellectual honesty from you?

No, I'm defending a persons right to do whatever he chooses to do with his own life...
After all, what two consenting adults agree to is their business, right?

You're defending slavery.

You're saying it's ok to own people like property.

And violating basic human rights is suddenly a question of consenting adults? REALLY? -_-


Just.... stahp ._.

[abaris]

Once again, you guys apply your modern day ideals to ancient civilizations. It was common practice for people to sell themselves into slavery if they were impoverished or owed a debt they didn't have the means to pay... what solution would you offer? Especially in a society that was based on the bartering system, seeing how the Hebrews just came out of slavery under the Egyptians.

If a homeless person agreed to work for me in exchange of food and shelter, it's your position that it's immoral?

Read the bible quotes I provided for you. And then come back on how moral and justified and voluntary this is all supposed to be. Especially the part about having a wife and children, but having to leave one's family behind when being set free, since they are still considered the property of the slaver. But, yes, the slave himself can stay on voluntarily, with his family, for a lifetime of servitude.

Are you really that dense or are you playing the three monkey theme here?

[SteelCurtain]

Very dishonestly you left off the explanation portion of the wiki article that explains why the term is non-sense.

That's Buggy's standard operating procedure. There is not a person on this board that is more deliberately dishonest than Buggy. Winner!

[Brakeman]

There is nothing in the Bible that states a "slave" CAN be beaten, just procedures to follow in case they ARE beaten.

Ha Ha HA .. Good one! You stretched that apology all across the yard!

So perfectly loving sky daddy's "big book of rules" doesn't condemn slavery specifically, because his pen was running out of ink? A practice that was well known and caused millions to suffer abuse, yet your god was more interested in writing line after line about what we must do with our penises?

Yeah, rightttt!