For football/soccer fans, predictions for the World Cup

[Fidel_Castronaut]

It is too bad so many good portuguese researchers don't earn nearly as much as he does. That is an offense to all that we are, that people that work hard in science for all that we have and will have, to earn a penny compared to a jock, that just happens to be good at a game. I can value Ronaldo for an athlete, but I value circus clowns more.

Yup. My fiancé earns pittance as a microbiologist, even though it's her research and that of her colleagues which is giving us a chance of not dying out in a hundred years or so from anti-biotoic resistant bacteria.

But I guess people don't care about that kind of thing. GOOOAL!

[jesus_wept]

American football is crap

The only worse sport is baseball.

And yes I have been to America and watched a New York Yankees and a Giants game and neither of them compared to the excitement and skill of even a non-league football game.

[Napoléon]

When weilding an axe an untrained wood cutter goes for power. A skilled cutter can achieve more with less. For me I'd prefer a curved trajectory because it is more deceiving. Think of the greats... Roberto Carlos, David Beckham.

Roberto Carlos? ROBERTO CARLOS? The guy who used to have the longest run up in free kicking history? Who was known for simply smacking the ball as hard as he could? The man who they nicknamed "The Rocket"? You use him to justify less powerful and more skillful free kicks? More with less? Really?

You can be skillful and have power. Roberto Carlos was one of those guys, but you using him as an example of someone like you suggest in your analogy? Did you ever watch him take a free kick?

Again, when was the last time Messi scored from 40 yards out? Never. At least Beckham, Ronaldo and Carlos could. You say you prefer a curved trajectory because it's more deceiving? How on Earth do you ever work out Messi's free kicks as being more deceiving than Ronaldo's? Ronaldo's are the ultimate deceiving free kick. He hits it in such a way that the flight of the ball can change drastically. Many goalkeepers would attest to that fact. Anyone who has ever played with today's balls knows that smashing a ball in a certain way can have pretty hilarious variances in the ball flight.

Being famed for something doesn't mean you are particularly skilled at it. Could it be that Messi's set pieces are conventional and Ronaldo's being unorthodox attract more attention? He is very dramatic with his stance and measuring.

I didn't say that, but it's certainly an indicator of what your free kicks are all about.

Ronaldo does not run 100 meters in a match flat out. This point is irrelevant. In soccer the players run in short bursts rarely reaching full speed. Acceleration on the other hand is a frequently used attribute.

The 100 meters is the ultimate test of short distance running no? I'd say it's relevant. The way Real Madrid play is with fast counter-attacking football. If Ronaldo is on the edge of his own box it's more beneficial for him to run the distance of the pitch to keep up with play with his speed than with Messi's. Especially if he has to keep up with Bale.

I do agree with your earlier statement though, Messi ain't a slow coach either. But Ronaldo is faster IMHO.

Yes, I concede this point. I disagree with the Messi diving though. Messi has demonstrated throughout his career that he is a player that prefers to be on his feet. Fetching a video with Messi diving is inadmissible as evidence. Those dives are taken completely out of context. For example there is no indication of time in the video. The occurances of the dives could be few and far between, but this is a sample taken over a long period of time. This creates the illusion of Messi being a frequent offender. This is simply not true. I'd go as far as saying that Messi almost goes down as a last resort. Ronaldo goes down intentionally

I guess we can come to a compromise, I know Ronaldo 'dives' more than Messi. I was just pointing out that when people say Messi never dives, they are completely wrong. He does dive, he does it more than many people think. Also, diving, depending on how you want to look at it, can be a positive thing. Nobody likes to see it in the game, but if you have a player on your team that's particularly good at deceiving refs (Arjen Robben and Ashley Young spring to mind), they could win a game on that alone.

There's a reason I didn't challenge you on heading and long range shots. Ronaldo is by far the better man here. Since you've found the need to bring this up again, I'll say a few words on it. Let's not make the mistake of thinking something is likely simply because it is possible. When was the last time Ronaldo scored a goal like he did against Porto in the champions league campaign of 2009?

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editori...rmation-of

The scale of his improvement against Barcelona in particular has been impressive. Fixtures against them were initially dreadful. That 5-0 in Camp Nou was the nadir. Redemption came with a superhuman header in the Copa del Rey final of 2011 to win the trophy. He's taken to scoring against Barca with considerable ease since. He's netted 13 times in 21 games against them in the white of Real Madrid.

...

Atletico may have risen in prominence under Diego Simeone but Ronaldo has routinely found the net against them too. His total is 12 in 13 games against the other side in Madrid. When Ronaldo started out at the Bernabeu, the games against Atletico were big only in the sense that they were derby encounters. Simeone, however, has earned the right to put his side into decisive matches against Real - both in La Liga and in Europe.

Do you think Real Madrid would have won the champions league this year without his record 16 goals?

What about when he scored a hat trick against Sweden to secure his team were in the world cup? Surely no match is bigger than that?

I'm sure in all of these big goals there's some headers and long shots in there.

I don't want to be pedantic but it is an argument from ignorance. You are not relying on actual information but assumed. Instead you are leaning on inductive reasoning. I call even on your point of Messi relying on his team mates more. Messi has scored countless individual, sensational goals. At the peak of his powers he can take on 5 men and will a goal out of thin air. He even did this in a classico WITH Ronaldo on the same field. Messi also destroyed a whole team in Maradona fashion further fuelling comparisons with the Argentina legend.

I never disputed that Messi scored some great individual goals, but who do you honestly think gets better service?

I'm not saying for a fact that Messi wouldn't score as many goals as he does for Barca in another league. But it's surely not an argument from ignorance to suggest that this would be highly unlikely given what we already know.

Ronaldo certainly is the more complete player. He comes fully loaded with all sorts of skills for the game. But I define best as who can get you the win, who can show up in the big matches and who is more reliable. While valid, I criticise your definition simply because it is primarily theoretical. Messi is the best.

I'll redirect you to that article I quoted earlier. Ronaldo is just as likely as Messi to get you a win in big games.

I look at it like this. Why do people say Muhammad Ali was the best/greatest of all time?
1: Because he told everyone so
2: He was one of the most well rounded boxers ever to live. He could do everything. Everything.

Now, for me, Messi is kinda like Mike Tyson (stay with me here). He's incredibly efficient at what he does. If not the best in that particular aspect. Mike Tyson in that he gets KO's. Messi in that he's the best dribbler and finisher out there. However, Mike Tyson (unless you listen to imbeciles) doesn't go down as 'the best'. He goes down as one of the best maybe, but when people talk about who is the best? It's the guy who can do it all. Ali with great chin, stamina, skill, power, speed, intelligence. Ronaldo with his skill, long shots, heading, finishing, passing. Both of these guys are more well rounded, more complete in what they do.

For this reason, theoretical or whatever it may be (I think when you're talking about who is 'the best' it can only ever be theoretical), I'd say Ronaldo is the better player. The thing is, you try and look at it in terms of something else, like say, record. Then Muhammad Ali would never have gone down as the greatest. Does he have the best boxing record ever? No. Does Ronaldo have the best record in terms of titles, and scoring? Ofcourse not. My point is, I'd rather judge it on the aspects I'm describing, than the aspects you're describing.



Yeah... long post... I know.

[BlackMason]

Roberto Carlos? ROBERTO CARLOS? The guy who used to have the longest run up in free kicking history? Who was known for simply smacking the ball as hard as he could? The man who they nicknamed "The Rocket"? You use him to justify less powerful and more skillful free kicks? More with less? Really?

You can be skillful and have power. Roberto Carlos was one of those guys, but you using him as an example of someone like you suggest in your analogy? Did you ever watch him take a free kick?

I see how my reference to Roberto is a bit of a foot in mouth incident. He does use a lot of power. However I was referencing his ability to make the ball curve ridiculously. This is what I haven't seen Cristiano do. Cristiano dips the ball. In his free kicks the ball often bounces just before the keeper. This is due to that dip I'm referring to.

Again, when was the last time Messi scored from 40 yards out? Never. At least Beckham, Ronaldo and Carlos could. You say you prefer a curved trajectory because it's more deceiving? How on Earth do you ever work out Messi's free kicks as being more deceiving than Ronaldo's? Ronaldo's are the ultimate deceiving free kick. He hits it in such a way that the flight of the ball can change drastically. Many goalkeepers would attest to that fact. Anyone who has ever played with today's balls knows that smashing a ball in a certain way can have pretty hilarious variances in the ball flight.

Ronaldo's trajectory abilities seem to be almost exclusively of the vertical type.

I'll redirect you to that article I quoted earlier. Ronaldo is just as likely as Messi to get you a win in big games.

I look at it like this. Why do people say Muhammad Ali was the best/greatest of all time?
1: Because he told everyone so
2: He was one of the most well rounded boxers ever to live. He could do everything. Everything.

Now, for me, Messi is kinda like Mike Tyson (stay with me here). He's incredibly efficient at what he does. If not the best in that particular aspect. Mike Tyson in that he gets KO's. Messi in that he's the best dribbler and finisher out there. However, Mike Tyson (unless you listen to imbeciles) doesn't go down as 'the best'. He goes down as one of the best maybe, but when people talk about who is the best? It's the guy who can do it all. Ali with great chin, stamina, skill, power, speed, intelligence. Ronaldo with his skill, long shots, heading, finishing, passing. Both of these guys are more well rounded, more complete in what they do.

For this reason, theoretical or whatever it may be (I think when you're talking about who is 'the best' it can only ever be theoretical), I'd say Ronaldo is the better player. The thing is, you try and look at it in terms of something else, like say, record. Then Muhammad Ali would never have gone down as the greatest. Does he have the best boxing record ever? No. Does Ronaldo have the best record in terms of titles, and scoring? Ofcourse not. My point is, I'd rather judge it on the aspects I'm describing, than the aspects you're describing.



Yeah... long post... I know.

Actually I'm a bit of a boxing fan. I hate Ali because I think he is an example of a villain that succeeded and the world seems oblivious to that. I watched a documentary on the thriller in Manila. It changed my view of Ali.

When it comes to this type of discussion, who the greatest are, I think accolades are a very important factor. They are all the necessary qualities of sport condensed into one shiny belt, cup or statue. I guess I'm an imbecile because I think Tyson is the goat. Not many people were able to unify the IBF, WBA and WBC titles. He did this at the age of 21! Tyson dominated. Just look at Busta Douglas fight, the McNeeley fight and even the Lou Savarese. These are just a few I'm picking off the top of my head.

More to the point: Messi has 4 Ballon d'Ors that were achieved in legendary succession. Jordan's double three-peat championship rings are an ode by themselves to just how completely unquestionable his status as goat is.

We have different criteria for how we determine the best players. I think we should just leave it at that.

[Mystical]

Okay guys. I've done some multicultural studies and from what I can ascertain : Rugby is the suicidal version of NFL FOOTBALL, and soccer is soccer.

I'm going to conclude that Rugby is more hardcore than NFL FOOTBALL which is more hardcore than Soccer, which is only barely more hardcore than butterfly catching.

Well, I feel betters.

[Napoléon]

Actually I'm a bit of a boxing fan. I hate Ali because I think he is an example of a villain that succeeded and the world seems oblivious to that. I watched a documentary on the thriller in Manila. It changed my view of Ali.

I'm not a fan of Ali, I personally don't think he was 'the greatest'. In the mainstream most people think of him as a hero or whatever but in reality he was a very nasty man. All of his episodes with Joe Frazier were just a case of him being a total douche. He continually called him an Uncle Tom, a gorilla, all sorts. Muhammad Ali was not a nice guy.

When it comes to this type of discussion, who the greatest are, I think accolades are a very important factor. They are all the necessary qualities of sport condensed into one shiny belt, cup or statue.

They are a factor, but it depends really IMHO on how important they are.

I guess I'm an imbecile because I think Tyson is the goat.

Heh, well, I don't want to call you an idiot but...

Not many people were able to unify the IBF, WBA and WBC titles. He did this at the age of 21! Tyson dominated. Just look at Busta Douglas fight, the McNeeley fight and even the Lou Savarese. These are just a few I'm picking off the top of my head.

Look at the Buster Douglas fight? You do know he got knocked out that fight right? By a nobody? When he was supposedly in his prime? Lou Savarese and McNeeley were not exactly world championship fighters either. In truth Tyson never really fought anyone all that great, people massively overestimate how good he was. He ducked the competition and was frankly a disgusting human being. You think Ali was bad? Tyson was a woman beating rapist. He was a complete disgrace to the sport when he bit Evander's ear, not once but twice. If he was truly the best he would have had a much better legacy than what he left, there's plenty of fighters who have better legacies.

More to the point: Messi has 4 Ballon d'Ors that were achieved in legendary succession. Jordan's double three-peat championship rings are an ode by themselves to just how completely unquestionable his status as goat is.

The Ballon d'Ors aren't really comparable to championship rings seen as you get voted to win a Ballon d'Or. I mean, for the last two years Franck Ribery has been one of the most voted for players, he isn't even the best player on Bayern Munich let alone in the world. I honestly couldn't give two fucks about the Ballon d'Or.

We have different criteria for how we determine the best players. I think we should just leave it at that.

Yep, we should argue about boxing instead.

[Rayaan]

Ronaldo's are the ultimate deceiving free kick. He hits it in such a way that the flight of the ball can change drastically. Many goalkeepers would attest to that fact. Anyone who has ever played with today's balls knows that smashing a ball in a certain way can have pretty hilarious variances in the ball flight.

Indeed. In the documentary below, starting from the 27 minute mark, it shows how Ronaldo hits free kicks and the various aerodynamic effects it can have on the ball's trajectory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeNLd68TTsM


Regarding Messi, although currently he seems to be slipping down from the peak of his performance, I think he's a remarkable player, too. He is better at dribbling than Ronaldo because of his greater speed and balance (which are partially aided by his smaller body frame). I'm not saying that to underestimate Ronaldo's dribbling either. I know that he's very good at that also.

But yes, when it comes to free kicks and goals, Ronaldo is much better at that than Messi. And of course, his strength is another factor which makes his free kicks so effective.

[BlackMason]

Look at the Buster Douglas fight? You do know he got knocked out that fight right? By a nobody? When he was supposedly in his prime? Lou Savarese and McNeeley were not exactly world championship fighters either. In truth Tyson never really fought anyone all that great, people massively overestimate how good he was. He ducked the competition and was frankly a disgusting human being. You think Ali was bad? Tyson was a woman beating rapist. He was a complete disgrace to the sport when he bit Evander's ear, not once but twice. If he was truly the best he would have had a much better legacy than what he left, there's plenty of fighters who have better legacies.

Clearly this memory thing doesn't work well for me when I need it to. I meant Trevor Berbick not Buster Douglas. I was trying to refer to the fight where Tyson was a challenger when he was 20. However, Buster Douglas was not exactly a nobody. He was lazy but he had a lot of natural talent. His jabs were not exactly what you'd expect from a nobody.

It's a popular thing for people to rush to mention that Tyson bit Holyfield's ear. The question is how many people actually know the full story? Not many. When dealing with reputations I admit that it doesn't matter who knows the full story. A stained rep is a stained rep. Tyson bit Holyfield's ear because Holyfield was cheating. He was headbutting Tyson throughout the match. The ref didn't see this and Tyson acted out of frustration. For me only woman beating rapist sticks. But this too can be "challenged". I say Tyson paid for his sins. He did the time for his crime. He apologised to society. Ali on the other hand got away. He could sell his name for $10 million while Joe Frazier was dead broke living in the top of the gym he trained for the thriller in Manila.

The Ballon d'Ors aren't really comparable to championship rings seen as you get voted to win a Ballon d'Or. I mean, for the last two years Franck Ribery has been one of the most voted for players, he isn't even the best player on Bayern Munich let alone in the world. I honestly couldn't give two fucks about the Ballon d'Or.

You do have a point. I would like to add that the Ballon d'Or includes coaches, players and journalists in their voting process. It has a broader base in terms of sample size. Soccer has 11 players on the pitch. It therefore stands to reason that it is more difficult to co-ordinate that number of men. What I mean is that the efforts of one player are more diluted. Basketball is a 5 man sport. A single man's performance is a lot more realisable than in soccer. I guess it was a bad move on my part to mention championships as you noted.

[Losty]

What the what? Are we now talking about boxing?

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Ronaldo's are the ultimate deceiving free kick. He hits it in such a way that the flight of the ball can change drastically. Many goalkeepers would attest to that fact. Anyone who has ever played with today's balls knows that smashing a ball in a certain way can have pretty hilarious variances in the ball flight.

Indeed. In the documentary below, starting from the 27 minute mark, it shows how Ronaldo hits free kicks and the various aerodynamic effects it can have on the ball's trajectory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeNLd68TTsM


Regarding Messi, although currently he seems to be slipping down from the peak of his performance, I think he's a remarkable player, too. He is better at dribbling than Ronaldo because of his greater speed and balance (which are partially aided by his smaller body frame). I'm not saying that to underestimate Ronaldo's dribbling either. I know that he's very good at that also.

But yes, when it comes to free kicks and goals, Ronaldo is much better at that than Messi. And of course, his strength is another factor which makes his free kicks so effective.

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I will admit that Ronaldo is sexier than Messi, but Messi plays for Argentina

[Napoléon]

Clearly this memory thing doesn't work well for me when I need it to. I meant Trevor Berbick not Buster Douglas. I was trying to refer to the fight where Tyson was a challenger when he was 20. However, Buster Douglas was not exactly a nobody. He was lazy but he had a lot of natural talent. His jabs were not exactly what you'd expect from a nobody.

Oh c'mon. Buster Douglas was a nobody compared to Tyson at the time. The only wins he had on his rec of note were McCall and Berbick, McCall who wasn't ever as good as people reckoned and Berbick who was on the back end of his career. The Mirage casino in Vegas had odds of Douglas winning against Tyson at 42-1! That tells you something. Either Tyson was massively over-rated, or Douglas was massively under-rated. I'm inclined to think it was perhaps a bit of both.

It's a popular thing for people to rush to mention that Tyson bit Holyfield's ear. The question is how many people actually know the full story? Not many. When dealing with reputations I admit that it doesn't matter who knows the full story. A stained rep is a stained rep. Tyson bit Holyfield's ear because Holyfield was cheating. He was headbutting Tyson throughout the match. The ref didn't see this and Tyson acted out of frustration.

Ugh, I just knew you were going to say this, as though it's an excuse for ripping someone's ear off.

For me only woman beating rapist sticks. But this too can be "challenged". I say Tyson paid for his sins. He did the time for his crime. He apologised to society. Ali on the other hand got away. He could sell his name for $10 million while Joe Frazier was dead broke living in the top of the gym he trained for the thriller in Manila.

Oh c'mon, Ali was a nasty man but he never beat women or bit people. It's not even comparable, Tyson was an animal. Even after he came out of prison, he wasn't exactly a likeable character. All throughout his career he ducked Lennox Lewis and then does interviews saying he'll eat his children, calling boxers faggots. Guy was a joke.

What the what? Are we now talking about boxing?

What good's a thread if you can't derail it?

I will admit that Ronaldo is sexier than Messi, but Messi plays for Argentina

Fuck Argentina, they revel in terrorism and celebrate the deaths of those living in the Falklands, then have the nerve to try and make a political point with their national football team. The country is run by a maniacal fucking warmonger.