RE: Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
September 20, 2015 at 2:14 pm
(September 20, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:(September 19, 2015 at 11:45 pm)strawberryBacteria Wrote: When I said creator of religion, I meant human, not god
Forgive my misunderstanding, then.
I'm not sure your premise, that religion brought stability, can be borne out by the evidence.
For all its influence on sociocultural stability, it has also been a destabilizing force, dividing peoples and inciting them to murderous anger, so that you have places like the Middle East or Ireland, the Crusades, the 30 Years' War, the bloody violence in India between Sikh and Hindu, ditto elsewhere in Southeast Asia between Buddhist and Muslim. You also have religion used to strip people of their rights, which is never a force for stability in a society.
There have been many great things which have come from religious folk as a result of their faith -- the music of Bach comes to mind immediately -- so "How Religion Poisons Everything" is perhaps not entirely accurate, but in general I agree with Hitchens that it has been at the very least a drag on our development, and in many, many cases, the prime motivation for retrogression.
I'd say that religion is effective-score-neutral in that regard. That is, it has had as many negative influences as it has positive ones, and whether or not it has negative or positive influences has varied like a sine wave through history. For instance, it was in large part the Christian religiousity of Charles Martel that allowed him to rally against the invading Muslims coming through Spain, and which encouraged Charlemagne to promote literacy in a time when it was almost nonexistent. It was the printing of the Bible and the desire of the common person to read it that helped to break the grip the Catholic church on the culture of Europe and eventually led to the Renaissance. For many of the early scientists, it was their love of God that led them to the meticulous work that it was required to understand Creation (see, for instance, Kepler, Mendel, and Newton). Common Christians and lower-level clergy have done amazing things in that regard, inspired by their religion and the effect it had on western civilization.
In contrast, I'd say the work of the religious leadership has always been net-score-negative, from the burning of the Great Library at Alexandria (to destroy any information that was "against God") to the destruction of the written histories of the Aztecs/Mayans/Incas for the same reason, and the suppression of freethinkers who dared to question the religious dogmas of their day (e.g. Giordano Bruno).
Saying that religion has a positive effect also ignores that post-Enlightenment secularism, from statements of the rights of man to the "consent of the governed" principle, has done more to rapidly advance our culture than the slowly-creep-forward that occurred under 1500 years of religious domination of the culture.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.