(September 21, 2015 at 9:35 am)Drich Wrote: What makes you think I have no 'proof' God exists? it is because you don't? Is it because you have been taught to dismiss the proof God initially offers? The best you can assert is I do not have proof to satisify YOU that God does not exist. But, that in of itself is a trivial standard, because you and what you think you believe, isn't an absolute measure of anything. For example. You have no proof of my mother, yet She exists. (my existence is not 'proof of anything anymore) You also have no 'proof' of her background yet she has one. Further more neither she or I are willing to provide you the proof you need to verify her existence or her background. Therefore the very best you can say is YOU have no proof in which to believe. Or you simply ASSume (without proof) that she exists.
Bottom line.. Just because you can't prove something does not mean 'proof' is not available. You are not the standard in which the universe must revolve.
Drich,
"Proof" is something that you can present to me that I CANNOT argue with.
Let's say you had a personal experience of God,
...and you consider that experience as "proof" of God, okay?
But you are not able to replicate that experience for the benefit of Atheists.
When you come to us with such a thing,
we cannot, with any degree of integrity,
consider that as being classifiable as "PROOF".
It is merely classifiable as a CLAIM that you were personally provided with PROOF.
I might even personally be prepared to believe that you sincerely had a personal experience,
but that STILL does not automatically translate into accepting your claim of an experience,
into my own proof of God's existence.
Even if I want to believe your claim,
if I am to be conscientious and honest with myself,
I am compelled to remain skeptical,
until I am personally provided with INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF, myself.
Using your mother as an example is redundant,
because, if called upon,
you COULD actually provide proof to others
of your mother's existence,
whereas you cannot, with regard to God's existence.
And I'm sorry, Drich...but I have to honestly say that I find it a bit tedious
that I had to explain that very obvious difference to you.
And if you are not willing to provide proof of her existence,
that's also irrelevant,
because:
A. Your claims of your mother's existence is far more plausible than your claims of God's existence;
B. Your claims of your mother's existence don't affect my life,
whereas the claims, by Theists, throughout history, of God's existence,
have resulted in wars and oppression.
So acknowledging your claims of your mother's existence, even without proof being provided,
is both easier, and far more harmless,
than acknowledging your claims of God's existence.
...and, ultimately, you don't really care whether or not I believe your mother exists, Drich,
whereas, on the other hand, it seems to be really important to you whether or not I believe God exists
...otherwise you wouldn't even be here arguing about it.
Secondly,
You go on to claim that God HAS already given man proof of Himself.
Where is that?
I have seen no such thing.
Thirdly,
How do you know that your experience of God is legitimate?
how do you know that you are not delusional,
seeing things no one else sees,
or, let's assume you are perfectly sane,
and that your experience was genuine
....you actually, legitimately experienced interaction with a supernatural being.
How do you know that the entity you observed
was actually who He claimed to be?
I can think of many, many reasons why a demon
might want to masquerade as God and fool humans into worshiping him,
...assuming there IS in fact a spirit realm, and such things as demons exist...
and by what yardstick to you gauge the authenticity of the manifestations and claims of spirits?
(And remember, as a Theist,
there is far more reason for YOU to be suspicious that you are being conned by a demon,
than there is reason for ME to think so,
since I'm not inclined to believe in demons, at all).
Finally Drich, to dismiss science because of conflicting theories or findings is so absurd that it angers me.
The cache of human knowledge reaped from Science is one where we have STEADILY MADE GAINS,
despite many backslides along the way.
The claims of Religion have STEADILY LOST GROUND over thousands of years.
(the earth is flat, the earth revolves around the sun, blood circulating through the body, etc etc)
Religion only continues to thrive and grow in numbers
because the majority of humanity chooses solace over facing hard truths,
is intellectually lazy, or ignorant,
or simply wants to win wars and wield power over those who do not agree with them.
