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The Moral Argument for God
RE: The Moral Argument for God
(December 7, 2015 at 7:35 pm)athrock Wrote: I'm Sorry

Man, do I feel stupid. I can't even begin to explain this...

A few days ago, I started this thread because I wanted to discuss the moral argument. I had been reading a bit about it and wanted to get some opinions on its weaknesses. So, the OP.

What puzzled me was all the objections to the logic rather than the premises and definitions of terms. As I said early on, the logic is valid. But only if you post the argument correctly to begin with. Which I didn't.

I kept looking at this over and over and over asking myself, "Why all this objection to the logic of an argument which is generally considered to be valid?"

I've been looking at websites about logic, reading more articles and scratching my head over this for days.

Then, today, it was as if blinders came off. I had stated premise one backwards. I couldn't believe it, so I went back to the articles and websites I had been reading previously, and damn...I had been reading one thing with my eyes, but recording something completely different in my brain. WTF! So, I just checked, and yes, I can still smell cinnamon.

Well, all I can say is: My bad, and I'm sorry for wasting some of your time.

So, after triple-checking with a half-dozen or so believer websites, I can say that the classic formulation of the Moral Argument is:

  1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
  2. But objective moral values and duties do exist.
  3. Therefore, God exists.
I think I may take the rest of the night off...and snort some more cinnamon.

A logical syllogism has to be both valid and sound, in order to lead to a true conclusion. 

Even if the moral agrument is valid, there are legitimate reasons to reject the premises. Thus making it unsound.

1. Morality is not objective. 
2. There may an objective morality that does not require a deity.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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Messages In This Thread
The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 3, 2015 at 6:18 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Jackalope - December 3, 2015 at 6:21 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 4, 2015 at 8:30 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 4, 2015 at 9:08 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Joods - December 8, 2015 at 12:36 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Joods - December 3, 2015 at 6:29 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 3, 2015 at 6:29 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 3, 2015 at 7:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 4, 2015 at 2:27 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 4, 2015 at 4:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 5:28 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2015 at 7:19 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 4, 2015 at 12:29 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 4, 2015 at 12:44 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 4:37 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 3, 2015 at 6:42 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 4, 2015 at 12:43 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 3, 2015 at 7:14 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 12:00 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 5, 2015 at 12:49 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2015 at 1:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 5, 2015 at 1:08 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 6, 2015 at 9:48 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2015 at 11:10 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 5, 2015 at 5:21 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 12:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 3, 2015 at 7:35 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Neo-Scholastic - December 3, 2015 at 9:52 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by thool - December 4, 2015 at 8:14 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by tkolter - December 22, 2015 at 6:51 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Alex K - December 4, 2015 at 9:22 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 1:06 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2015 at 1:10 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Alex K - December 5, 2015 at 7:26 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 6, 2015 at 4:25 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 6, 2015 at 4:52 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 1:05 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Ben Davis - December 4, 2015 at 10:06 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Longhorn - December 4, 2015 at 10:48 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Alex K - December 4, 2015 at 11:30 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by dyresand - December 4, 2015 at 11:39 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 4, 2015 at 11:50 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by dyresand - December 4, 2015 at 12:19 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 4, 2015 at 12:35 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 4:26 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 1:26 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 4, 2015 at 12:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 4, 2015 at 12:57 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 9, 2015 at 6:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 5:10 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 1:37 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 4, 2015 at 1:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 4, 2015 at 1:06 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 4, 2015 at 2:51 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRealJoeFish - December 4, 2015 at 3:03 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRealJoeFish - December 4, 2015 at 3:02 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 4, 2015 at 3:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 4, 2015 at 5:36 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 4, 2015 at 5:56 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 4, 2015 at 6:56 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 12:43 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 7, 2015 at 5:03 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by RoadRunner79 - December 5, 2015 at 1:07 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2015 at 10:03 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by RoadRunner79 - December 5, 2015 at 11:30 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2015 at 11:07 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by RoadRunner79 - December 6, 2015 at 12:09 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2015 at 1:01 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by LostLocke - December 5, 2015 at 12:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 5, 2015 at 12:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by LostLocke - December 5, 2015 at 10:36 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 5, 2015 at 11:32 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IAOALGIV - December 5, 2015 at 11:33 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 12:52 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 5, 2015 at 9:32 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by RoadRunner79 - December 5, 2015 at 11:25 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 5, 2015 at 1:45 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by FatAndFaithless - December 5, 2015 at 4:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 5, 2015 at 4:54 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IAOALGIV - December 5, 2015 at 10:37 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IAOALGIV - December 5, 2015 at 11:30 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 6, 2015 at 11:29 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 6, 2015 at 11:38 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 6, 2015 at 12:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Longhorn - December 6, 2015 at 5:18 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 7, 2015 at 2:43 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 6, 2015 at 8:13 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Esquilax - December 6, 2015 at 5:06 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 6, 2015 at 9:25 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Ben Davis - December 7, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Esquilax - December 7, 2015 at 12:59 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 7, 2015 at 2:19 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 7, 2015 at 2:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 3:30 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 7, 2015 at 3:25 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Esquilax - December 7, 2015 at 4:22 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Jenny A - December 7, 2015 at 5:12 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 6, 2015 at 9:42 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Wyrd of Gawd - December 7, 2015 at 1:42 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 7, 2015 at 11:25 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 7, 2015 at 11:39 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 7, 2015 at 11:50 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 7, 2015 at 1:11 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 8, 2015 at 12:50 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 7, 2015 at 3:31 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Nay_Sayer - December 7, 2015 at 8:29 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 7, 2015 at 9:03 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 1:52 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 7, 2015 at 7:35 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Jackalope - December 7, 2015 at 7:46 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 9, 2015 at 10:57 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 9, 2015 at 2:09 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Jackalope - December 9, 2015 at 5:41 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 10, 2015 at 6:43 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 10, 2015 at 8:11 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 9:10 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 11, 2015 at 6:20 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 11, 2015 at 6:28 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mr.wizard - December 11, 2015 at 6:38 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 12, 2015 at 12:36 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mr.wizard - December 12, 2015 at 1:26 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 12, 2015 at 9:07 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 10, 2015 at 8:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 9:15 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 11, 2015 at 5:37 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 10, 2015 at 11:26 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 9:52 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mudhammam - December 11, 2015 at 5:45 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 11, 2015 at 6:42 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 11, 2015 at 11:47 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 13, 2015 at 5:50 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 13, 2015 at 11:15 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 14, 2015 at 4:30 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 13, 2015 at 5:41 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 7, 2015 at 10:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 7, 2015 at 7:52 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 9, 2015 at 3:57 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 9, 2015 at 3:57 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 9, 2015 at 6:46 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mudhammam - December 10, 2015 at 11:32 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Brian37 - December 11, 2015 at 9:00 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 9:12 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 10:25 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 9:18 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 10:19 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 10:52 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 10:26 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 11:05 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 6:59 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by GoHalos1993 - December 12, 2015 at 3:47 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 12, 2015 at 9:05 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mudhammam - December 12, 2015 at 12:49 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by downbeatplumb - December 12, 2015 at 1:36 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 12, 2015 at 7:35 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 12, 2015 at 8:47 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 13, 2015 at 11:17 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mr.wizard - December 13, 2015 at 11:41 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Brian37 - December 13, 2015 at 12:19 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Natachan - December 13, 2015 at 10:59 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Heat - December 14, 2015 at 3:33 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 15, 2015 at 1:49 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 15, 2015 at 2:11 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 15, 2015 at 7:20 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 15, 2015 at 8:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Heat - December 15, 2015 at 10:01 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Heat - December 15, 2015 at 3:31 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 15, 2015 at 5:07 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Edwardo Piet - December 19, 2015 at 4:01 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 15, 2015 at 5:48 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 18, 2015 at 11:18 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 18, 2015 at 12:46 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 19, 2015 at 2:40 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 19, 2015 at 12:33 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Divinity - December 18, 2015 at 12:09 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 18, 2015 at 1:32 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Divinity - December 18, 2015 at 1:38 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 18, 2015 at 1:41 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mr.wizard - December 18, 2015 at 7:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 18, 2015 at 12:11 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 18, 2015 at 1:50 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 18, 2015 at 2:11 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 18, 2015 at 5:53 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 18, 2015 at 7:38 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 18, 2015 at 9:14 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 1:12 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Divinity - December 18, 2015 at 2:17 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Divinity - December 18, 2015 at 12:29 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 18, 2015 at 8:06 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by robvalue - December 19, 2015 at 4:11 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Cecelia - December 19, 2015 at 11:40 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 12:14 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Jenny A - December 22, 2015 at 12:22 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 1:26 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 22, 2015 at 1:20 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 2:05 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 22, 2015 at 2:10 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Edwardo Piet - December 22, 2015 at 2:08 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 22, 2015 at 1:33 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 22, 2015 at 7:47 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by robvalue - December 22, 2015 at 12:56 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 22, 2015 at 1:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 2:23 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 22, 2015 at 3:54 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 22, 2015 at 4:17 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 22, 2015 at 5:07 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Edwardo Piet - December 22, 2015 at 2:14 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 3:23 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 22, 2015 at 6:59 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by abaris - December 22, 2015 at 4:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by robvalue - December 23, 2015 at 3:03 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Goosebump - December 23, 2015 at 11:14 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by robvalue - December 24, 2015 at 4:53 am

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