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The Moral Argument for God
RE: The Moral Argument for God
(December 15, 2015 at 7:20 pm)athrock Wrote:
(December 15, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Vincent Wrote: I've already responded to and defeated this argument several times in the last post I made that you failed to reply to. You have a flawed understanding of subjective morality. 

Subjective is not what we perceive to be moral always and everywhere. Subjective is what is decided through feelings and opinions. And everything that man has ever declared immoral has been decided by his own perception of what is right and wrong. Thus, everything moral is subjective. 

I ask you again, what makes murder wrong?

Objective Moral Values are those that would still exist even if every single human being living on the planet were to be killed by a virus.

Murder would still be wrong. Racial discrimination would still be wrong. Even if there were no humans around to commit those acts.

Quote:Alright. How? You're walking around the dilemma not by approaching it directly, but by changing your word choice.

How do you decide what is good? You cannot communicate with god directly. 
And furthermore, how do you know that God is good?
And furthermore, explain to me the science behind something being factually good?
Good is subjective. Something can be perceived to be good or bad, depending on the individual, but it cannot exist as being good as fact.  

Well, you're asking me to respond on behalf of theism, so okay...here's what I think a believer might say in response to your questions:

Theists would say that they CAN communicate with God directly. Further, they would say that He has initiated this contact (Judaism, Islam, etc.). Christians would say that God chose to become a man in order to communicate even more directly (though this was not the main reason). Above all, Christians hold that we all have an understanding of right and wrong that is hardwired into our makeup, so even people who have never heard of God still understand some truths about right and wrong.

God is good by definition. Evil is merely the absence of Good and not a thing in and of itself. God must be Good and cannot be bad.

Does science make determinations about "good" and "evil", between "right" and "wrong"?

Finally, the God of theism simply IS good, and all other things are determined to be good or bad depending upon how closely they correspond to his nature.

(December 15, 2015 at 3:31 pm)Heat Wrote: This breaks down with the simple argument of 'why?'

No, the argument does not break down by asking a simple question.

Without an independent standard, then you and I are simply left with our own personal preferences of what is right and wrong. We may agree (social convention), but we may not.

(December 15, 2015 at 5:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Still trying to manufacture an objective morality out of agreement, Athrock?

Still trying to get people to think rather than simply accepting the silly notion that mere social convention is the basis for morality.

So, yeah.
Any assumption that by definition God has to be responsible for any one thing is torn apart by the simple question "why?"

This is a false dichotomy. You are jumping to conclusions ignoring the logical process. Based on your logc, let's assume God exists, we'll then since magic exists Harry Potter must exist too. It makes no sense. As well, outside morality meaning the existence of God would only work if th morality was all the same, but it's not, it's not consistent.
Which is better:
To die with ignorance, or to live with intelligence?

Truth doesn't accommodate to personal opinions.
The choice is yours. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is God and there is man, it's only a matter of who created whom

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The more questions you ask, the more you realize that disagreement is inevitable, and communication of this disagreement, irrelevant.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 3, 2015 at 6:18 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Jackalope - December 3, 2015 at 6:21 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 4, 2015 at 8:30 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 4, 2015 at 9:08 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Joods - December 8, 2015 at 12:36 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Joods - December 3, 2015 at 6:29 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 3, 2015 at 6:29 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 3, 2015 at 7:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 4, 2015 at 2:27 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 4, 2015 at 4:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 5:28 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2015 at 7:19 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 4, 2015 at 12:29 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 4, 2015 at 12:44 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 4:37 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 3, 2015 at 6:42 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 4, 2015 at 12:43 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 3, 2015 at 7:14 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 12:00 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 5, 2015 at 12:49 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2015 at 1:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 5, 2015 at 1:08 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 6, 2015 at 9:48 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2015 at 11:10 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 5, 2015 at 5:21 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 12:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 3, 2015 at 7:35 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Neo-Scholastic - December 3, 2015 at 9:52 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by thool - December 4, 2015 at 8:14 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by tkolter - December 22, 2015 at 6:51 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Alex K - December 4, 2015 at 9:22 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 1:06 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2015 at 1:10 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Alex K - December 5, 2015 at 7:26 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 6, 2015 at 4:25 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 6, 2015 at 4:52 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 1:05 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Ben Davis - December 4, 2015 at 10:06 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Longhorn - December 4, 2015 at 10:48 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Alex K - December 4, 2015 at 11:30 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by dyresand - December 4, 2015 at 11:39 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 4, 2015 at 11:50 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by dyresand - December 4, 2015 at 12:19 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 4, 2015 at 12:35 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 4:26 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 1:26 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 4, 2015 at 12:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 4, 2015 at 12:57 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 9, 2015 at 6:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 5, 2015 at 5:10 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 1:37 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 4, 2015 at 1:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 4, 2015 at 1:06 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 4, 2015 at 2:51 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRealJoeFish - December 4, 2015 at 3:03 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRealJoeFish - December 4, 2015 at 3:02 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 4, 2015 at 3:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 4, 2015 at 5:36 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 4, 2015 at 5:56 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 4, 2015 at 6:56 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 12:43 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 7, 2015 at 5:03 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by RoadRunner79 - December 5, 2015 at 1:07 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2015 at 10:03 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by RoadRunner79 - December 5, 2015 at 11:30 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2015 at 11:07 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by RoadRunner79 - December 6, 2015 at 12:09 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2015 at 1:01 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by LostLocke - December 5, 2015 at 12:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 5, 2015 at 12:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by LostLocke - December 5, 2015 at 10:36 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 5, 2015 at 11:32 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IAOALGIV - December 5, 2015 at 11:33 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 12:52 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 5, 2015 at 9:32 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by RoadRunner79 - December 5, 2015 at 11:25 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 5, 2015 at 1:45 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by FatAndFaithless - December 5, 2015 at 4:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 5, 2015 at 4:54 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IAOALGIV - December 5, 2015 at 10:37 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IAOALGIV - December 5, 2015 at 11:30 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 6, 2015 at 11:29 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 6, 2015 at 11:38 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 6, 2015 at 12:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Longhorn - December 6, 2015 at 5:18 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 7, 2015 at 2:43 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 6, 2015 at 8:13 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Esquilax - December 6, 2015 at 5:06 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 6, 2015 at 9:25 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Ben Davis - December 7, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Esquilax - December 7, 2015 at 12:59 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 7, 2015 at 2:19 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 7, 2015 at 2:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 3:30 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 7, 2015 at 3:25 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Esquilax - December 7, 2015 at 4:22 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Jenny A - December 7, 2015 at 5:12 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 6, 2015 at 9:42 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Wyrd of Gawd - December 7, 2015 at 1:42 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 7, 2015 at 11:25 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 7, 2015 at 11:39 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Grandizer - December 7, 2015 at 11:50 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 7, 2015 at 1:11 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 8, 2015 at 12:50 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 7, 2015 at 3:31 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Nay_Sayer - December 7, 2015 at 8:29 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 7, 2015 at 9:03 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 1:52 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 7, 2015 at 7:35 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Jackalope - December 7, 2015 at 7:46 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 9, 2015 at 10:57 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by henryp - December 9, 2015 at 2:09 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Jackalope - December 9, 2015 at 5:41 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 10, 2015 at 6:43 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 10, 2015 at 8:11 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 9:10 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 11, 2015 at 6:20 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 11, 2015 at 6:28 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mr.wizard - December 11, 2015 at 6:38 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 12, 2015 at 12:36 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mr.wizard - December 12, 2015 at 1:26 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 12, 2015 at 9:07 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 10, 2015 at 8:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 9:15 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 11, 2015 at 5:37 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 10, 2015 at 11:26 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 9:52 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mudhammam - December 11, 2015 at 5:45 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 11, 2015 at 6:42 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 11, 2015 at 11:47 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 13, 2015 at 5:50 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 13, 2015 at 11:15 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 14, 2015 at 4:30 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 13, 2015 at 5:41 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Simon Moon - December 7, 2015 at 10:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Chad32 - December 7, 2015 at 7:52 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 9, 2015 at 3:57 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 9, 2015 at 3:57 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 9, 2015 at 6:46 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mudhammam - December 10, 2015 at 11:32 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Brian37 - December 11, 2015 at 9:00 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 9:12 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 10:25 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 9:18 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 10:19 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 10:52 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 10:26 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 11:05 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 6:59 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by GoHalos1993 - December 12, 2015 at 3:47 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 12, 2015 at 9:05 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mudhammam - December 12, 2015 at 12:49 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by downbeatplumb - December 12, 2015 at 1:36 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 12, 2015 at 7:35 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 12, 2015 at 8:47 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 13, 2015 at 11:17 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mr.wizard - December 13, 2015 at 11:41 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Brian37 - December 13, 2015 at 12:19 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Natachan - December 13, 2015 at 10:59 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Heat - December 14, 2015 at 3:33 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 15, 2015 at 1:49 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 15, 2015 at 2:11 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 15, 2015 at 7:20 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 15, 2015 at 8:04 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Heat - December 15, 2015 at 10:01 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Heat - December 15, 2015 at 3:31 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 15, 2015 at 5:07 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Edwardo Piet - December 19, 2015 at 4:01 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by The Grand Nudger - December 15, 2015 at 5:48 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 18, 2015 at 11:18 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 18, 2015 at 12:46 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 19, 2015 at 2:40 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 19, 2015 at 12:33 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Divinity - December 18, 2015 at 12:09 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 18, 2015 at 1:32 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Divinity - December 18, 2015 at 1:38 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Whateverist - December 18, 2015 at 1:41 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Mr.wizard - December 18, 2015 at 7:55 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 18, 2015 at 12:11 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 18, 2015 at 1:50 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 18, 2015 at 2:11 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 18, 2015 at 5:53 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 18, 2015 at 7:38 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 18, 2015 at 9:14 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 1:12 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Divinity - December 18, 2015 at 2:17 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Divinity - December 18, 2015 at 12:29 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by brewer - December 18, 2015 at 8:06 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by robvalue - December 19, 2015 at 4:11 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Cecelia - December 19, 2015 at 11:40 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 12:14 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Jenny A - December 22, 2015 at 12:22 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 1:26 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 22, 2015 at 1:20 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 2:05 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 22, 2015 at 2:10 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Edwardo Piet - December 22, 2015 at 2:08 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 22, 2015 at 1:33 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by IATIA - December 22, 2015 at 7:47 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by robvalue - December 22, 2015 at 12:56 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 22, 2015 at 1:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 2:23 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Angrboda - December 22, 2015 at 3:54 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Vincent - December 22, 2015 at 4:17 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 22, 2015 at 5:07 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Edwardo Piet - December 22, 2015 at 2:14 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by athrock - December 22, 2015 at 3:23 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Pat Mustard - December 22, 2015 at 6:59 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by abaris - December 22, 2015 at 4:34 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by robvalue - December 23, 2015 at 3:03 am
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by Goosebump - December 23, 2015 at 11:14 pm
RE: The Moral Argument for God - by robvalue - December 24, 2015 at 4:53 am

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